Was a Rick Berman a bad choice to run the Star Trek Franchise after Gene Roddenberry died?

[Damian]

On CBS East Side/West Side had a black woman secretary—Cicely Tyson—as a main cast member in 1963, three years before Uhura, and on NBC The Man From U.N.C.L.E. has a "Russian" as co-lead before Trek hit the airwaves. The year before Trek bowed NBC's I Spy had a black male co-lead and CBS also had a black member of the regular cast of Hogan's Heroes the same year. and Mission: Impossible had a black member of the team who was treated as equal to the others.

I guess when you get right down to it, Star Trek is not nearly as groundbreaking as Trekkies like to believe. Trekkies like to think, sometimes, that Star Trek was unprecedented, doing things that no one else was doing. Maybe Star Trek was a bit unusual, sometimes going against the common grain at the time, but when you look at it dispassionately it really wasn't charting new courses.

So I guess when it comes Berman Trek, if you want to criticize Berman Trek for not having homosexual characters against overall TV, that's one thing. But if you want to argue Berman Trek was behind the curve when compared to the original series breaking boundaries, perhaps that's not as fair of an argument to make.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I seem to recall the much celebrated 'first televised interracial kiss' was nothing of the sort?

I like fan myths. It's nasty when they get exploded.

 

[Paul Weaver]

I seem to recall the much celebrated 'first televised interracial kiss' was nothing of the sort?

Depends on your definition of interracial and first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_interracial_kiss_on_television
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura's_kiss

Kirk/Uhura was the first on-the-lips kiss on US television between someone of African descent and a white person

However change one of these
* on-the-lips
* US television
* African descent

and it's not

 

[Forbin]

Depends on your definition of interracial and first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_interracial_kiss_on_television
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura's_kiss

Kirk/Uhura was the first on-the-lips kiss on US television between someone of African descent and a white person

However change one of these
* on-the-lips
* US television
* African descent

and it's not

There was an episode of It Takes a Thief where Robert Wagner and Denise Nicholas shared a clear, affectionate, full-lipped goodbye kiss (as opposed to Shat and Nichelle cheating it away from camera). It aired only one month after Plato's Stepchildren. I don't know when the episodes were filmed, so it's possible they filmed their ep first and got to air later. I suppose it's also possible the Thief staff saw Stepchildren and thought "You call THAT a kiss?" and wrote it in to top them.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Depends on your definition of interracial and first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_interracial_kiss_on_television
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura's_kiss

Kirk/Uhura was the first on-the-lips kiss on US television between someone of African descent and a white person

However change one of these
* on-the-lips
* US television
* African descent

and it's not

In that case I consider the fan myth de-exploded.

 

[Forbin]

For those of you who can still see my image posts from my ISP, here's the Thief moment, from Dec 1968:

 

[Mudd]

In that case I consider the fan myth de-exploded.

It's a myth.

 

[fireproof78]

man people are getting heated in here I just think he was a bad writer and a horndog

Mildly warm, maybe.

 

[JLBTucker]

Come on guys why cant we just agree that Star Trek tries and sometimes fails to push forward. Even when they try it can still fail, for instance speaking as a gay man, Stamens is a bad character

 

[fireproof78]

Come on guys why cant we just agree that Star Trek tries and sometimes fails to push forward. Even when they try it can still fail, for instance speaking as a gay man, Stamens is a bad character

Because there is a level of investment in that mythology.

 

[Damian]

To be honest, I mostly like Star Trek for the stories and the fun ride. Also that it's one of the futuristic sci-fi shows to show Earth in a positive light. That we have gotten over our differences and we were one, united Earth. So many futuristic sci-fi shows and movies are dystopian in nature. Star Trek was one of the few that was more utopian, or as close to utopian as imperfect humans can get. We're still not perfect, but humanity reached a point where we are more united than divided.

And it's just entertaining to watch most of the time.

If someone decides to watch Star Trek because they heard somewhere that it's at the forefront of groundbreaking social issues, then that person is probably going to leave disappointed.

Where it might be more groundbreaking throughout it's entire history, from the original series, through the Berman years and now in the Kurtzman years (and every thing in between) is it's depiction of a United Earth. Where someone's race, religion, political persuasion, orientation, or whatever other differences you want to depict, is secondary to us just being human beings. What unites us in that future is greater than the things that divide us.

 

[XCV330]

Come on guys why cant we just agree that Star Trek tries and sometimes fails to push forward. Even when they try it can still fail, for instance speaking as a gay man, Stamens is a bad character

speaking as a person with a subjective opinion, Stamets is a great character
He went into Starfleet for his own research purposes, not planning on being in a war. He was placed under the command of an officer probably unsuited to work with him, Lorca, and separated from his research partner, making the work more difficult. He finally succeeded in his mission by making some questionable ethical choices, but he's learned to live with them, for the most part. He can be a grouch. We need more grouches. Grouches get things done because sometimes no one else will. And he has a support network in Culber, Tilly, and Adira Tal to keep him grounded enough to still work with the crew.

 

[fireproof78]

What unites us in that future is greater than the things that divide us.

One of the few times that I will say this: As it should be. Humans focus too much on what divides us, and it sadly starts at a young age.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

It's a myth.

In that case I consider the myth re-exploded.

I don’t care that much to be honest:

 

[Vger23]

Come on guys why cant we just agree that Star Trek tries and sometimes fails to push forward. Even when they try it can still fail, for instance speaking as a gay man, Stamens is a bad character

And speaking as a straight man (I'm not sure why our sexual preferences or identities matter regarding a character we would discuss), I think Stamets is a wonderful character. I love his mix of curmudgeon / dark sarcasm / prickly-ness combined with his deep passion and love for his work, his partner, and Adira. And I think Anthony Rapp plays it magnificently.

It may not resonate with you personally, but I'm not going to agree that he's a "bad character."

 

[cooleddie74]

Stamets is one of the best things about DSC.

 

[Oddish]

I like Stamets as well. I like that early scene with him and Culber just brushing their teeth together, just like any straight partners would do... it's scenes like that that the haters and homophobes should live in fear of. Anything that shows loving and committed same-sex couples just going about their lives and caring for each other and their children... that affects the straight person's psyche in a way that no pride parade or rainbow flag waving rally can hope to.

 

[FormerLurker]

Agreed. The homophobes get their knickers in a twist about the sex, but it's the basic affection that really bothers them.

 

[Oddish]

Agreed. The homophobes get their knickers in a twist about the sex, but it's the basic affection that really bothers them.

Just the opposite, IMO. People tend to dislike and fear that which is different. People tend to identify with that which is like them. That's why two guys just brushing their teeth together undermines the notion of homophobia so neatly: a straight guy watches that scene and thinks about the many ordinary domestic scenes where he and his wife brushed their teeth together. Or show a family with two moms eating breakfast together: juice being poured, waffles being plopped on plates, kids whining about having to go to school... just people living their lives and loving the people they share them with. Homophobia, like every other prejudice, requires ignorance and marginalization to survive.

 

[JLBTucker]

And speaking as a straight man (I'm not sure why our sexual preferences or identities matter regarding a character we would discuss), I think Stamets is a wonderful character. I love his mix of curmudgeon / dark sarcasm / prickly-ness combined with his deep passion and love for his work, his partner, and Adira. And I think Anthony Rapp plays it magnificently.

It may not resonate with you personally, but I'm not going to agree that he's a "bad character."

we can agree to disagree I'm not going to get into a discussion bout modern trek that's well worn. Just not my thing. I just wanted to make clear my non like for him has nothing to do with being gay or not, because oddly I've seen some idiots not like him on that front or discovery in general for being "SJW Trash" I just think the show is bad