That doesn't really help the argument any given that DS9 only showed homosexuality in the Mirror Universe, in other words the place where Star Trek has turned evil and wrong.
Was a Rick Berman a bad choice to run the Star Trek Franchise after Gene Roddenberry died?
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Dynasty, L.A Law., Melrose place, during the late 80s and early 90's and then when ds9 and voyager were airing there were showd like buffy, Dawson creek, will and grace and queer as folk.
However, regardless of how many other series did or didn't have gay characters when TNG was airing, it should have been a pioneer in this regard. But it wasn't because berman wouldn't allow it. The fact that televised trek had to wait until 2016 for a gay main character is inexcusable.
I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the intent. Also, remember “Rejoined?” That wasn’t in the Mirror universe.
It's hard not to look at the mirror universe homosexuality in a negative light, because only evil versions of our beloved characters exhibit it.
Rejoined isn't really about homosexuality at all but more about the failings of cultural taboos. It's not the two women who love each other but the two symbionts who happen to be in the bodies of women. Dax would have loved Kahn regardless of the gender of the host. It was a very brave choice to depict the relationship as being between two women, but as a gay man, I can't see it as a depiction of homosexuality.
Even if you accepted that excuse for TNG, it wouldn't fly for Voyager or Enterprise, considering how much and how quickly the TV and social landscape was changing in those days. Heck even "Bound" got called out by many critics after its first airing in 2005, as it just seemed absurd and outdated that the Orion slave girls got each and every man aboard the Enterprise (not counting Trip, who was still very decidedly heterosexual) lusting after them, but didn't have even a single woman reacting that way.
IIRC their effect on men and women was biologically related from a hormone perspective. Men and women, even gay men and women, still have the hormones of a man and a woman respectively, and certain pheromones can make us do things we wouldn't normally do.
So if it creates irritability in women because of their hormones, I don't think it would matter whether they were gay or homosexual. They would become irritable when the Orion women were around because that's the hormonal response it creates in females, and lust in males because that's the hormonal response it creates in men. It has nothing to do with whether they were homosexual or heterosexual.
I did kind of like the little twist at the end where we learn it's really the women pulling all the strings and they were the ones at the heart of the Orion Syndicate.
Okay, apologies. There's been so much political griping inserted into everything in general these days, I couldn't help but interpret it that way. Never mind.
Don't stress. It's easy to miss interpret things on the Internet. For what it's worth and risk of tomatoes being hurled at me I don't have issues with people who are politically Conservative. They're a varied bunch as any. I just don't think trek and conservatism really go together.Okay, apologies. There's been so much political griping inserted into everything in general these days, I couldn't help but interpret it that way. Never mind.
The problem is that would break the whole scheme imdeatly if some known gay men came slobbering after them and somthing would be obsvoisly up trust me if my freinds sundly saw me horndoging over a woman they would be concerd
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Would it though? If everyone was affected then they might not even realize what was going on. Trip and T'Pol were unaffected but they already knew something was up.
Honestly though, it probably didn't even cross their minds. There weren't any known gay characters shown on the Enterprise. I was just offering a possible in story explanation, that it could have been the nature of the pheromones and not sexual orientation that affected the crew. Like drugs, they can make you do things you wouldn't ever consider doing if you were sane or sober.
Piller after leaving 2 years into Voyager doesn't get a whole lot of credit but he does have a lot more affection and a lot less hostility than Berman does.
I do think Berman did pretty well given the circumstances he had, finishing TNG pretty strongly while making two new shows with/just after it, with strong unique premises but the studio wanting the latter to be toned down to be more TNG Continued. He was impressively humble early on, willing and eager to share the leadership and creative processes with Piller and Taylor on TNG and Voyager and Piller and then Behr on Deep Space Nine and therefore let the shows be as different from each other as they could be. Enterprise especially, and especially disappointingly, seemed more of the same too much later but that was also in part from the studio preferring more familiarity than risky freshness.
He was pretty annoying in insisting that nothing was really wrong with Enterprise, the fans were just too picky or never satisfied (and embraced the defense that it will get better later on, the other shows did) and he really should have tried more and better to reverse the downward slope the films were on but overall a fine chief given Paramount's expectations.
My thoughts on Rick Berman.
He helped or was directly involved in getting 624 episodes across 4 series of 25 seasons and multiple movies made.
Comparison of episodes, longest running producers:
STARGATE: Brad Wright, 354
DOCTOR WHO: John Nathan-Turner, 170
SUPERNATURAL: 327 (Combining all their episodes by the end of this last season, though there have been 5 showrunners.)
No other person in any other franchise has come close.
Despite some flaws in some decisions he has made, STAR TREK as a franchise really grew during his era. He also hired some really great people, who in turn brought really great episodes to the table.
My verdict: he did far more good than bad.
Addendum: I just calculated. If I were to coubt the ARROWVERSE, which I have never seen any part of, Greg Berlanti will actually beat Berman. His total is already at 525, and with multiple shows going on at once and some already renewed, he will be the only person to beat Berman.
He helped or was directly involved in getting 624 episodes across 4 series of 25 seasons and multiple movies made.
Comparison of episodes, longest running producers:
STARGATE: Brad Wright, 354
DOCTOR WHO: John Nathan-Turner, 170
SUPERNATURAL: 327 (Combining all their episodes by the end of this last season, though there have been 5 showrunners.)
No other person in any other franchise has come close.
Despite some flaws in some decisions he has made, STAR TREK as a franchise really grew during his era. He also hired some really great people, who in turn brought really great episodes to the table.
My verdict: he did far more good than bad.
Addendum: I just calculated. If I were to coubt the ARROWVERSE, which I have never seen any part of, Greg Berlanti will actually beat Berman. His total is already at 525, and with multiple shows going on at once and some already renewed, he will be the only person to beat Berman.
Paul Verhoeven is a brilliant movie maker who doesn't have to justify anything to anyone. It still took him decades to admit that "Showgirls" wasn't the profound work of art he thought it was.
Some people are just too close and too involved to step back and admit their passionately built creation just sucks.
Yeah but it's a flimsy LGBT allegory, even if they had opted to use male symbiont host bodies instead of female. It's still discussing the Trill society and its nuances first and foremost... but as an allegory, it's a lot more refined than "Outcast" and its apparent stance on test tube/drug-addled babies as opposed to physical means of procreation was. And as allegories go, they didn't even realize they made them with "True Q" (not because of the lame parallels/references to "The Wizard of Oz") and even "Encounter at Farpoint" thanks to Picard uttering one line, if nothing else. And that might be the most entertaining way to do it since viewers can sit there and perceive anything they want.
But it equals success.Well, like I always say, quantity doesn't necessarily equal quality.
Very true about quantity vs. quality.
But a LOT of the best stuff was in those 624 episodes.
DS9 alone I hold up as an example.
But a LOT of the best stuff was in those 624 episodes.
DS9 alone I hold up as an example.
I'm not watching yet another youtube video from some random bloke. Those are very tiresome.
But from the standpoint of professional experience, it seems like Berman was at a point where he was capable of overseeing multiple shows. Perhaps he kept the reins too long.
Kor
But from the standpoint of professional experience, it seems like Berman was at a point where he was capable of overseeing multiple shows. Perhaps he kept the reins too long.
Kor
In a business sense, I suppose, which is what was important to his bosses. But definitely not in an artistic sense.
Yes, the series he had least to do with was mostly wonderful!
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