Warp Maneuverability

[EmperorTiberius]

Some have pointed out that while the separation in "Farpoint" happens at extreme warp, the actual U-turn is shown happening while the stars on the background aren't particularly long streaks, but more like the slightly elongated dots associated with impulse mode.

Personally, I think the U-turn stars are just fine as high-warp streaks. They are merely seen from an unfamiliar angle here... And the dialogue certainly suggests that the separation happened at extreme warp, whilst later plot twists imply that the saucer continued at high warp as well (and did a U-turn of its own, to reach Deneb IV).

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, that's why I had to rewatch it. There is no indication that the ship's necelles glow when the ship makes that u-turn like they would if it went to warp, nor is there any reason we should infer so from the conversations.

And as you pointed out and I forgot, the saucer section does come back on it's own, it's like it rides the warp bubble.

This reminds me of emissary where the Klingon liaison flies in the high speed torpedo. There is no way that torpedo would have had so much fuel to make that journey. Instead, it must have ability to coast in the warp bubble.

 

[STR]

I dunno. The "ending of 2001, but white" effect appears every now and again, although of course not nearly as pronounced or protracted. It's kind of inferrable from the photonic boom, or whatever it's supposed to be, that seems to precede or immediately follow the ships hitting 1c.

Cherenokov radiation, or the emission of light caused by superluminal objects. It is quite similar in nature to a sonic boom.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, I'd like to forget Fury, too. After all, I'm so sure Voyager ignored that rule several times that season anyway.

According to Memory Alpha:

• This episode first establishes the Starfleet guideline "Faster than light, no left or right" or "Maintain a linear trajectory wherever possible while at warp speed". This is the only episode in any of the modern Trek series to place a restriction on the movement of a vessel at warp speed. Consequently, this is the only episode where a starship is not able to maneuver at warp speeds.

Just one big "ugh" and one pretty big nit if you ask me. In the face of 40+ years of continuity, I think it deserves to be overlooked, undeserving of being reconciled.

Didn't we already have this issue under study at the beginning of the thread?

The circumstances in "Fury" are very specific, in fact truly extreme. No starship could maneuver left or right in those. Moreover, the silly rhyme is quoted as a "primer" to warp navigation, a rule to be ignored or broken in real life. "Fury" isn't really in contradiction of anything: indeed, the ship does maneuver at warp speed in that episode, but stops doing so when running into a region of anomalies (similar to "In Theory", but much worse).

It's not as if our writers make our heroes retroactively decide they can't turn at warp at all. That's not the purpose of the dialogue or the rhyme. Instead, its purpose is to establish that our heroes have run into something exceptional that puts their abilities to their limits - and in this case past those limits, precluding warp movement.

There is no indication that the ship's necelles glow when the ship makes that u-turn like they would if it went to warp, nor is there any reason we should infer so from the conversations.

Hmh? In "Farpoint", dialogue basically necessitates the ship being at high warp during separation. Data comments that high warp separation has not been done before, and Picard ignores his concerns.

We could argue that Picard got cold feet only moments later, and did slow down to impulse at the last second after the diversionary torpedoes were detonated. But we could also argue that the turn is a slo-mo depiction of the real maneuver (it really would have to be), thereby showing shortened streaks.

Also, the engines definitely glow bright blue through that maneuver.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorTiberius]

What I'm saying is, they separated at warp and continued at warp, despite the silly stars argument. The stars are not streaky because the camera moves around.

 

[Timo]

Ah, right. Agreed 100%.

So you meant there was a "going-to-warp" flash missing from the scene, and since the ship segments were at warp after the scene, they would have needed to go to warp (with the missing flash) rather than stay at warp if they really slowed to impulse during the U-turn? Sorry, I couldn't follow through all the twists.

I wonder if the starstreaks had to be omitted because the VFX people didn't know how to do them for that wide and panning scene - or because they wanted to use the separation scene (cranked to different speeds) for many future episodes, including those involving impulse separations?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Ah, right. Agreed 100%.

So you meant there was a "going-to-warp" flash missing from the scene, and since the ship segments were at warp after the scene, they would have needed to go to warp (with the missing flash) rather than stay at warp if they really slowed to impulse during the U-turn? Sorry, I couldn't follow through all the twists.

I wonder if the starstreaks had to be omitted because the VFX people didn't know how to do them for that wide and panning scene - or because they wanted to use the separation scene (cranked to different speeds) for many future episodes, including those involving impulse separations?

Timo Saloniemi

That's right, sorry I confused you. When I try to type in a hurry my English is not the best

About the streaks, did they use the same separation scene in Arsenal of Freedom? That could answer our question

 

[Deks]

SF guidelines also state that initiating Warp drive inside a Solar system is not to be done ... yet it was done on numerous occasions without damaging consequences.

From the Fury dialog:
Janeway: Tom, what's the first thing they teach you about maneuvering at warp?
Paris: Faster than light, no left or right. When possible, maintain a linear trajectory.

When possible.
So it's not set in stone.
Open space has plenty of room for maneuvering, though it likely has to be done slowly in order to avoid hull fractures.
Fury doesn't really rule out maneuvering at warp.

 

[Santaman]

I don't think it has anything to do with the hull strength since the Ent -D routinely makes a sharp turn while jumping to Warp, Open space isn't quite as open at speeds like that, there's always something to crash into may it be a simple cloud of hydrogen or a full sized iron/nickel asteroid.

 

[Deks]

That's why they have sensors which allow them to see what's out there for one thing ... and deflector which pushes out interstellar matter out of the way.

Open space ... in terms of 'no stellar bodies present' would likely have very large amount of space for warp maneuvers.

 

[Timo]

"Sharp turn when going to warp"... Well, the E-D does a sharp impulse turn, then stretches into the warp effect and does the warp flash. Probably not a "warp turn", then.

And indeed this could count as evidence that sharp warp turns are a bad idea. Otherwise, Picard wouldn't have his helmsperson waste time turning the ship around at impulse, but would go straight to warp and do the turn there. Sure, it might mean going in the wrong direction an extra few lighthours, but the ship would waste less time doing so...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorTiberius]

"Sharp turn when going to warp"... Well, the E-D does a sharp impulse turn, then stretches into the warp effect and does the warp flash. Probably not a "warp turn", then.

And indeed this could count as evidence that sharp warp turns are a bad idea. Otherwise, Picard wouldn't have his helmsperson waste time turning the ship around at impulse, but would go straight to warp and do the turn there. Sure, it might mean going in the wrong direction an extra few lighthours, but the ship would waste less time doing so...

Timo Saloniemi

I really doubt that. It's much more time consuming to go in the opposite direction, make a wide turn, then come back than to turn on a dime at impulse, then go to warp.

 

[Timo]

Why? If the ship has the same turning rate (in degrees per second) at impulse and warp, then it makes no difference whether one goes to warp at the beginning or the end of the turn. The exact same amount of time is spent before the ship starts heading in the right direction at warp speed. That is, the amount of time it takes to turn the ship the required number of degrees, be it at warp or impulse. It doesn't matter whether or not the ship covers distance during that time, too.

If the ship turns around more sharply at impulse, then the impulse turn wins you time. If the ship turns around more sharply at warp, then the warp turn wins you time. If the turning rates are identical, then the time wasted is identical as well, even though the ship that goes to warp first will make a wider loop.

So we can use this material to pose the question: which turn is sharper - warp or impulse? Since Picard does order the ship turned at impulse, we should IMHO argue that impulse is sharper, at least for the Galaxy class. But we have seen many different turning rates for the ship: two-three seconds in exterior view in the usual case for the U-turn-and-warp, but more than ten seconds in interior view for the same maneuver in "The Child". Perhaps there are other factors at play there, such as the urgency of the maneuver. Or the stresses imposed by the maneuver; perhaps the turning rate is the same at warp, but the stresses there are greater, which leads Picard to do the impulse turn? That'd support the "Fury" dialogue perfectly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STR]

Why? If the ship has the same turning rate (in degrees per second) at impulse and warp, then it makes no difference whether one goes to warp at the beginning or the end of the turn. The exact same amount of time is spent before the ship starts heading in the right direction at warp speed. That is, the amount of time it takes to turn the ship the required number of degrees, be it at warp or impulse. It doesn't matter whether or not the ship covers distance during that time, too.

If the ship turns around more sharply at impulse, then the impulse turn wins you time. If the ship turns around more sharply at warp, then the warp turn wins you time. If the turning rates are identical, then the time wasted is identical as well, even though the ship that goes to warp first will make a wider loop.

Seems like you're confusing turn rate with turn radius. Or you're forgetting that while it may take the E-D 15 seconds for a full about, that's about 14.5 seconds in the very wrong direction, and 0.5 seconds in a slightly wrong trajectory (little margin for error at relativistic and superluminal speeds). All of which is time that must be made up by staying in warp longer. So if you're in a time critical situation, that's not good.

Reason 2, As a matter of conservation, the initial heading would be achieved at impulse, because warp or not, an object in space is always in a ballistic trajectory.

So we can use this material to pose the question: which turn is sharper - warp or impulse? Since Picard does order the ship turned at impulse, we should IMHO argue that impulse is sharper, at least for the Galaxy class. But we have seen many different turning rates for the ship: two-three seconds in exterior view in the usual case for the U-turn-and-warp, but more than ten seconds in interior view for the same maneuver in "The Child". Perhaps there are other factors at play there, such as the urgency of the maneuver. Or the stresses imposed by the maneuver; perhaps the turning rate is the same at warp, but the stresses there are greater, which leads Picard to do the impulse turn? That'd support the "Fury" dialogue perfectly.

Timo Saloniemi

If a starship works anything like an aircraft, aggressive maneuvering would be discouraged, as it would cause structural fatigue which could reduce the life of the vessel.

 

[Timo]

Seems like you're confusing turn rate with turn radius. Or you're forgetting that while it may take the E-D 15 seconds for a full about, that's about 14.5 seconds in the very wrong direction, and 0.5 seconds in a slightly wrong trajectory (little margin for error at relativistic and superluminal speeds).

No, there's not. Just think it through, slowly and carefully.

1) Impulse turn is a maneuver wherein the ship at first points in the wrong direction by D degrees, then turns D degrees, then goes to warp. The ship is at warp, at starting point X, after time T1. This time T1 is solely dependent on how long it takes the ship to turn D degrees. The turn might take place at pinpoint, or involve a short curving trajectory as often seen, and the results would be the same.

2) Warp turn is a maneuver wherein the ship at first points in the wrong direction by D degrees, then goes to warp, then turns D degrees. The ship is at warp, at starting point X, at time zero. It then moves in the wrong direction for the first second, turns a little, moves in a slightly less wrong direction for the second second, turns a little more, and so forth, until it is moving in the right direction. This has taken the ship the amount of time T2, equal to the time for turning D degrees at warp, and not a second more. During that time, the ship has been heading away from the target for a while, then again towards the target for a while, but that's irrelevant because at the end of time T2 she is necessarily back at starting point X or at slightly different point X' that is still equidistant from the intended destination. "Little margin for error" is utter bullshit - the universe doesn't care if a ship embarking on a journey of a dozen lightyears starts that journey from X' rather than X. At warp, margins for error are lightmonths wide.

No extra time at all has been spent during the loop made at warp. A few insignificant lightseconds of distance have been covered back and forth, but nothing has been lost by doing so.

Now, T1=T2 if the ship's turning rate is the same at impulse and warp. Turning radius does not feature in here in any manner. If the ship is more agile at warp than at impulse, then T2<T1 and a smart skipper ought to go to warp first and only turn afterwards. If the ship is clumsier at warp, then T2>T1 and the turn should be made at impulse (unless it is otherwise good idea to quickly go to warp, say, to avoid enemy fire). And if warp turns are more stressful than impulse turns, then it would be a good idea generally to do an impulse turn even if T2<<T1... But probably still a good idea to do a warp turn if one is in a real hurry.

Reason 2, As a matter of conservation, the initial heading would be achieved at impulse, because warp or not, an object in space is always in a ballistic trajectory.

That makes no sense. Why would warp make a difference to ballistics here?

And starships can ignore ballistics. Like, totally. So what if they are on a trajectory that plunges them into the core of a gas giant in a few moments? The helmsman only need press a button and the ship suddenly is on a trajectory that docks it with the local space station. The ship could make a basically infinite number of such course corrections before the fuel gauge needle as much as stirred, or other such considerations arose.

Starships are not spacecraft in the sense Apollo was. They don't have to consider ballistics. They have thrust to spare: if they wanted, they could e.g. travel from Cape Canaveral to Tranquility Base in an absolutely direct beeline, and probably would because that's simpler than doing ballistics calculations. Starships don't make "engine burns" and then coast to target: their engines run hot all the time, apparently constantly accelerating them, and Newton's voice is but a hoarse whisper in the background. The navigational computer only takes it into account as the third term in the error function, for the final but unnecessary hundredth of a percent of accuracy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Why? If the ship has the same turning rate (in degrees per second) at impulse and warp, then it makes no difference whether one goes to warp at the beginning or the end of the turn. The exact same amount of time is spent before the ship starts heading in the right direction at warp speed. That is, the amount of time it takes to turn the ship the required number of degrees, be it at warp or impulse. It doesn't matter whether or not the ship covers distance during that time, too.

If the ship turns around more sharply at impulse, then the impulse turn wins you time. If the ship turns around more sharply at warp, then the warp turn wins you time. If the turning rates are identical, then the time wasted is identical as well, even though the ship that goes to warp first will make a wider loop.

So we can use this material to pose the question: which turn is sharper - warp or impulse? Since Picard does order the ship turned at impulse, we should IMHO argue that impulse is sharper, at least for the Galaxy class. But we have seen many different turning rates for the ship: two-three seconds in exterior view in the usual case for the U-turn-and-warp, but more than ten seconds in interior view for the same maneuver in "The Child". Perhaps there are other factors at play there, such as the urgency of the maneuver. Or the stresses imposed by the maneuver; perhaps the turning rate is the same at warp, but the stresses there are greater, which leads Picard to do the impulse turn? That'd support the "Fury" dialogue perfectly.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, I'm no physicist, you could be right, but...

The turning rate is obviously not the same. Like I said, at impulse, the ship turns almost on a dime, which doesn't seem to be the case with warp (see "The Wounded").

Even if the turning rate is the same, you are oversimplifying the problem. When the ship jumps to warp, it would go in a straight line until the jump is completed, then begin the turn (which lasts the same as the ship that makes the turn at impulse), then comes back to the starting point.

Example:

USS Galaxy warps forwards for 1 second, turns for 1 second, then covers the distance back for 1 second = 3 seconds to come back to the starting point.

USS Enterprise goes at impulse 500m in 1 second, tuns for 1 second, then warps.

At the moment Galaxy completes its turn, Enterprise is already jumping into warp 1 second ahead of the Galaxy because it "doesn't have to" complete a trip back. In reality it does, but it's completely negligible and a fraction of the time it takes Galaxy to complete its trip back.

There are other issues as well. For example radius matters. USS Galaxy would be taking a slightly longer course back because it veered off the main axis by turning at high speed. Also, the acceleration to warp might not be instantaneous. It might take the ship jumping to warp longer to jump to warp than for a ship at impulse to move forward.

Even worse, we've seen that ships don't have to to move forward at all. We've seen Defiant and Galaxy use only thrusters to turn on the spot. So even if they did have the same turning rate, the ship jumping to warp in the opposite direction would be wasting time doubling back on itself.

 

[Timo]

The turning rate is obviously not the same. Like I said, at impulse, the ship turns almost on a dime, which doesn't seem to be the case with warp (see "The Wounded").

I see little difference there. Turning rate is just degrees per second - you can turn those degrees while sitting on a dime or while moving forward, and the end result will be the same. The nose of the E-D seems to be skewing to starboard at the same rate in the stock shot of her turning and warping and in the custom shot of her banking to follow the Phoenix...

When the ship jumps to warp, it would go in a straight line until the jump is completed

Do we have a reason to believe this? Seagoing ships steered by rudders don't turn until they have achieved a certain threshold speed. But ships steered by their propellers can start turning from the very moment they start moving. We haven't really heard of a rule wherein one would have to give "jumping time" or "acceleration time" to a starship before she can start turning... For all we know, she already is turning when we see the effect of her warp "stretch" starting.

It is possible, though, that one has to spend the first X seconds or split seconds of warp flying in a straight line, even if we're never really told this would be the case. If so, then impulse would probably be preferable - unless it also so happens that the first X seconds of impulse would have to be done dead ahead. After all, the stock shot of the E-D turning does feature her going forward at first for some reason, rather than turning on the spot.

So even if they did have the same turning rate, the ship jumping to warp in the opposite direction would be wasting time doubling back on itself.

Only if part of the warping would be spent without turning. If all the warping moments also involve turning at maximum rate, then the doubling back is not an issue at all (or, to be sure, it doesn't consume time, it only consumes fuel).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I only base it on the opening shots where Enterprise jumps straight. I would imagine the part where she seems to bend space at least until the flash in the distance is straight.

 

[Timo]

But she covers a great distance in a short time there - and we're only interested in the time, not the distance. If she turns, say, five degrees in that split second (we wouldn't see that with a naked eye, even if she were turning in such a shot, which she probably isn't), she might still be out-turning an impulse competitor.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Another argument for the turn to have been in warp is that we saw a sweeping turn at all. If the Enterprise needed to drop out of warp to face the oncoming Q, then the ship goes sublight, pivots on her thrusters 180 degrees
(flys backwards), goes back to warp without ever firing her impulse engines. Disengage, pivot, engage. The episode "Samaritan Snare" shows the Enterprise doing a 180 degree pivot on thrusters alone in only five seconds.

Also given the high warp speed nature of the chase, the Q would have over taken the Enterprise as she slowed to sublight, he was only ten or twelve seconds behind, The saucer seperation happen a high warp speed, the turn begins with the saucer still in frame, presumably still at high warp speed.

Youtube about 48 seconds in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqwYI-uK3fk

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I would imagine they would have to drop out of warp and as for turning corners, any tiny tiny movements would probably send them vastly off course.

Why would you assume that?

I suspect that people are just missing the idea of how absolutely BIG space is... and how large the distances we're talking about (as well as the speeds we're talking about) really are.

If you make a 90-degree turn in a tenth of a lightyear, when moving at WF9, that's a pretty damned tight turn, isn't it?