Warp field inside a warp field?

[FreddyE]

I have always wondered: If a ship created a second warp field inside its already existing field...would that make the ship faster or do absolutley nothing?

 

[Tiberius]

It would make the inner warp field move at warp speed compared to the outer warp field. As soon as the inner warp field moved outside the inner warp field, it would become another outer warp field (just with no inner warp field), and it would behave exactly as we see.

Think of it as a car sitting onto of another car. The bottom car is diving at 100 KPH. If the top car starts moving relative to the bottom car at 100KPH, it will quickly drive off the bottom car and find itself sitting on the road, and it will then be moving at 100KPH, not 200KPH.

 

[Timo]

...And what happens to a ship that flies at warp through another ship's warp field?

There was a tight warp battle or two in VOY between the hero ship and small Kazon craft, such as these in "Basics":

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x26/basicsI_195.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x26/basicsI_233.jpg

To avoid overshooting their target, did the Kazon have to synchronize their warp fields somehow?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Warp fields do have the ability to merge if they're synchronized. That's what happened with NX-01 Enterprise and NX-02 Columbia in "Divergence."
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...Enterprise_and_Columbia_merge_warp_fields.jpg

 

[Timo]

This incident also suggests that a warp field is a fairly compact thing; just possibly, the field of USS Voyager might have been tight enough to leave those Kazon raiders outside.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I have always wondered: If a ship created a second warp field inside its already existing field...would that make the ship faster or do absolutley nothing?

Was I mistaken in believing that warp drives already work this way?

E.G. warp 1 is a single warp field, driving the ship forward at the speed of light.
Warp 2 is a second warp field inside the first, driving the ship at the speed of light with respect to its already accelerating reference frame.
And so on and so forth.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It's possible that it requires multiple subspace fields (each one measured in millicochranes) to propel a ship at warp one. A warp field could be the term used to describe the overall nesting of subspace fields around a vessel at warp flight.

 

[blssdwlf]

We also have Enterprise in "The Motion Picture" flying into the massive FTL cloud field of V'ger. No ill effects

 

[YARN]

Sounds like Inception.

If you go 4 warp fields down, you get stuck in limbo.

 

[Verteron]

The TNG technical manual certainly suggests that multiple, nested warp fields are already what's used to create the FTL effect - rather than just a single field. Of course, it's up to people whether they think this is cannon or not, I suppose!

 

[Lord Manitou]

Are there any instances of a warp field generated inside a warp field in the series? It could be determined upon how one can classify and identify certain technologies. There were many occurances in Voyager when the warp field was extended or modified in a certain way (about a third of the eps. I suspect). In 'Vis-a Vis' is a classic example where Voyager's warp field was extended around Steth's ship to stabilize it. The same thing happened in 'Unforgettable'.
Are you very certain it would be a simple task to make another synchronized sub-space inside a subtleties of a working sub-space field? One of reasons for sub-space is because their is not too-much(or many) unclassified objects inside a designated three -dimensions. One heralds the existence of a warp field- where one exists is there a possibility or a need for more of a warp field?

 

[Ian Keldon]

I am assuming you are referring to propulsive fields, since other ship systems (impulse engines and elements of the ship's computer core) also generate subspace/warp fields.

 

[Lord Manitou]

I'm just trying to explain that one of the reasons a scientist or computer program would want a sub-space field because a three dimensions would lack anomalies, unclassifieds, discontinuities and I am not being too ambiguous.

 

[publiusr]

We also have Enterprise in "The Motion Picture" flying into the massive FTL cloud field of V'ger. No ill effects

Now I seem to remember that--in the novel, they circled round and approached from the back. But if one warp field is very power full, the Enterprise could enter head on--be absorbed, then essentially reverse FTL in no time flat being carried by the much larger ship. The effects are not commutative.

 

[publiusr]

Now, what if you went to warp to enter a wormhole with a stargate on in the shuttlebay when someone hits you with some red matter and a slipstream generator--there goers the multiverse!

 

[blssdwlf]

We also have Enterprise in "The Motion Picture" flying into the massive FTL cloud field of V'ger. No ill effects

Now I seem to remember that--in the novel, they circled round and approached from the back. But if one warp field is very power full, the Enterprise could enter head on--be absorbed, then essentially reverse FTL in no time flat being carried by the much larger ship. The effects are not commutative.

What's interesting is that in the movie, we know that the Enterprise's warp engines were still engaged while still in V'ger. It wasn't until they were actually grabbed by a tractor beam that Kirk ordered the engines disengaged to avoid burning them out. Once Enterprise was inside and the tractor beam disengaged, the Enterprise I assume was floating free and moving along with V'ger's warp field.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We also have Enterprise in "The Motion Picture" flying into the massive FTL cloud field of V'ger. No ill effects

Now I seem to remember that--in the novel, they circled round and approached from the back. But if one warp field is very power full, the Enterprise could enter head on--be absorbed, then essentially reverse FTL in no time flat being carried by the much larger ship. The effects are not commutative.

What's interesting is that in the movie, we know that the Enterprise's warp engines were still engaged while still in V'ger. It wasn't until they were actually grabbed by a tractor beam that Kirk ordered the engines disengaged to avoid burning them out. Once Enterprise was inside and the tractor beam disengaged, the Enterprise I assume was floating free and moving along with V'ger's warp field.

How, exactly, do we know that the Enterprise's warp engines were engaged while she was maneuvering inside the V'Ger cloud? The ship changed direction and speed many times since first approaching the cloud, but I recall no orders regarding speed, whether warp or impulse. There is an order to "Hold relative position here," right before the energy probe comes aboard and takes Ilia. Once the tractor beam seizes the ship, Kirk orders full emergency power. Agreed, at that point certainly (probably) warp drive is engaged. But before that, while the ship is moving through the cloud and down around the surface of the V'Ger vessel? How do we know whether the ship's warp or impulse drive was engaged?

Honestly, based on the fact that nothing was streaking by the ship, it looked to me as if only the Enterprise's impulse drive was operating, even though V'Ger was still presumably warping to Earth. In other words, lacking any other evidence to the contrary, I'd suppose that the Enterprise was being carried along by V'Ger's warp field.

Dialog transcript is at http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie1.html.

 

[NebulaClassGuy]

Are there any instances of a warp field generated inside a warp field in the series? It could be determined upon how one can classify and identify certain technologies. There were many occurances in Voyager when the warp field was extended or modified in a certain way (about a third of the eps. I suspect). In 'Vis-a Vis' is a classic example where Voyager's warp field was extended around Steth's ship to stabilize it. The same thing happened in 'Unforgettable'.
Are you very certain it would be a simple task to make another synchronized sub-space inside a subtleties of a working sub-space field? One of reasons for sub-space is because their is not too-much(or many) unclassified objects inside a designated three -dimensions. One heralds the existence of a warp field- where one exists is there a possibility or a need for more of a warp field?

I think it's very possible to do. I recall reading a Trek fanfic once where a species used this kind of method to attain transwarp velocities, but you're right in that we never saw it on-screen, AFAIK.

 

[blssdwlf]

How, exactly, do we know that the Enterprise's warp engines were engaged while she was maneuvering inside the V'Ger cloud? The ship changed direction and speed many times since first approaching the cloud, but I recall no orders regarding speed, whether warp or impulse. There is an order to "Hold relative position here," right before the energy probe comes aboard and takes Ilia. Once the tractor beam seizes the ship, Kirk orders full emergency power. Agreed, at that point certainly (probably) warp drive is engaged. But before that, while the ship is moving through the cloud and down around the surface of the V'Ger vessel? How do we know whether the ship's warp or impulse drive was engaged?

Honestly, based on the fact that nothing was streaking by the ship, it looked to me as if only the Enterprise's impulse drive was operating, even though V'Ger was still presumably warping to Earth. In other words, lacking any other evidence to the contrary, I'd suppose that the Enterprise was being carried along by V'Ger's warp field.

Dialog transcript is at http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie1.html.

Depending on which version of TMP (Director or Theatrical) you watch, V'ger's cloud is 2 au or 82 au wide. For Enterprise to cover the distance as depicted on Tactical (about 1/2 way to center of cloud) in less than 1 m 30s, she would need to travel between 2.5c to 100c faster (or slower depending on direction of approach) than V'ger.

ILIA: One minute, thirty seconds to Cloud boundary.
...
KIRK: Mister Sulu, hold present position.
SULU: Holding present position, sir.
KIRK: Tactical plot on viewer.
SULU (OC): Course projection on tactical, sir.

​

I'd argue that since V'ger as far as we know never slowed down and Enterprise had to maneuver relative to V'ger that Enterprise always had her warp engines engaged up till she had to disengage them when they were tractored.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's a good observation. Assuming the scale of the graphic is as is suggested by the depicted curvature of the cloud, and assuming the graphic and dialog accurately depict the relations intended in the story at that moment, the ship needs to cross a long distance in 90 seconds (certainly not an insignificant fraction of the cloud radius, even if not half the radius).

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd1428.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/themotionpicture0772.jpg

ETA: OK --- I changed my mind:

KIRK: Navigator, lay in a conic section flight path into the Cloud center. Bring us parallel to whatever we find in there. ...Mister Sulu, tactical plot on viewer.

This line only makes sense if the ship is maneuvering on warp power.

I agree, now.