In TFF they specifically say "center of the galaxy".
Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Flake
- Start date
In TFF they specifically say "center of the galaxy".
And I was thinking I'm the only one who noticed...
I believe there is something very wrong with that alternate timeline. It looks like Federation is in possession of (originally) highly advanced post-24th-century technology, probably originating from the multiple temporal incursions of the Temporal Cold War.
There is certain evidence to support that:
(1) The "warp" drive ENT uses in St09 as well in STID is very fast, but so was the Voyager's failed slipstream attempt in Timeless.
They basically got to the doorstep of Alpha quadrant within the few minutes before the slisptream tunnel collapsed.
(2) Visually, it looks like quantum slipstream drive, or the vortex drive (might be QSD too) of the Xindi. Considering the Xindi got their drives from 26th century Sphere Builders and ENT NX-01 was heavily exposed to the technology as well, it could lead to Federation being much more advanced in terms of propulsion by mid 23th century.
(3) The "warp core" room as seen in STID much more closely resembles the QSD engine room of USS.Dauntless (VOY Hope and Fear) than any classic warp reactor room we have seen on FED starship
(4) When ENT escapes the Vengeance, Kirk feels he is safe at "warp" velocity, which implies it is not possible to intercept the ship while "at warp". This is completely not consistent with how we have seen classic warp travel to work, but could be consistent with transwarp tunnels / QSD tunnels as seen in VOY.
(5) If there is one Star Trek show ST09 and STID are proudly referencing as its predecessor, it is Star Trek: Enterprise
All of the above is just rationalization and I fully get the "speed of plot" and "this is a reboot" statements, BUT when watching this movie it somehow clicked in me. I made up my mind and STID made the nu-Trek universe to makse sense to me. The point when I realized this was when Vengeance intercepted ENT. It looked so awfully close to VOY intercepting Dauntless in Hope and Fear. And when we saw the "core room", this was again very close to Dauntless.
I think Mr. Daniels has his work cut out for him
I believe there is something very wrong with that alternate timeline. It looks like Federation is in possession of (originally) highly advanced post-24th-century technology, probably originating from the multiple temporal incursions of the Temporal Cold War.
There is certain evidence to support that:
(1) The "warp" drive ENT uses in St09 as well in STID is very fast, but so was the Voyager's failed slipstream attempt in Timeless.
They basically got to the doorstep of Alpha quadrant within the few minutes before the slisptream tunnel collapsed.
(2) Visually, it looks like quantum slipstream drive, or the vortex drive (might be QSD too) of the Xindi. Considering the Xindi got their drives from 26th century Sphere Builders and ENT NX-01 was heavily exposed to the technology as well, it could lead to Federation being much more advanced in terms of propulsion by mid 23th century.
(3) The "warp core" room as seen in STID much more closely resembles the QSD engine room of USS.Dauntless (VOY Hope and Fear) than any classic warp reactor room we have seen on FED starship
(4) When ENT escapes the Vengeance, Kirk feels he is safe at "warp" velocity, which implies it is not possible to intercept the ship while "at warp". This is completely not consistent with how we have seen classic warp travel to work, but could be consistent with transwarp tunnels / QSD tunnels as seen in VOY.
(5) If there is one Star Trek show ST09 and STID are proudly referencing as its predecessor, it is Star Trek: Enterprise
All of the above is just rationalization and I fully get the "speed of plot" and "this is a reboot" statements, BUT when watching this movie it somehow clicked in me. I made up my mind and STID made the nu-Trek universe to makse sense to me. The point when I realized this was when Vengeance intercepted ENT. It looked so awfully close to VOY intercepting Dauntless in Hope and Fear. And when we saw the "core room", this was again very close to Dauntless.
I think Mr. Daniels has his work cut out for him
trevanian
Rear Admiral
This got talked out quite a bit 30 odd years back, and again in the last 10 or 12 after the dvd.
Consensus was this reference really meant 'risk engaging UNTESTED warp engines while still in-system.' Presumably you'd get towed out of the system and test calibrate engines out there under normal conditions.
In system warp is just always a given in TREK, though Moore obviously was referencing Diane Duane (again!) with the going to warp too close to sun bit on DS9, this time tapping her THE WOUNDED SKY instead of MY ENEMY MY ALLY, which has an awful lot of points of similarity to his Romulan defector script.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Sorry, didn't see Maurice already addressed this.
The notion of getting way outside any gravity wells for doing potentially dangerous FTL stuff is just good manners and safety concerns being addressed.
As opposed to the WTF of calibrating warp engines while on the ground, which is the Orci explanation for the AbramsVerse aberration, you'd do it where the ship lives, in deep space.
If you think that is speculation rather than just reasonable extrapolation, I supposed you're welcome to do so.
Well consensus in this case just reinterpreted what Kirk said. Yeah, Trek usually doesn't care about it. TMP and one episode of DS9 are the only times I can think of that mentioned it, but it's rare that Trek explicitely warps in-system before ST09, too. Still, Kirk's log is pretty explicit, and doesn't mention the warp drive's newness.
It's not unreasonable, but it's still speculation. At this point this is semantics. The two are equivalent. I don't mind the speculation, but that's what it is.
Ships will warp between planets in the same system if time is an issue. For example, this was an option available to Captain Kirk when he had to ferry the Dohlman of Elas to Troyius.
Here is the relevant dialogue:
KIRK: Mister Chekov, lay in a course for Troyius. Mister Sulu, impulse drive, speed factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Impulse drive, captain?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct, Mister Sulu. Sublight factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.
SCOTT: Captain? You'll not will be using warp drive? All the way on impulse. That'll take a great deal of time.
KIRK: You in a hurry, Mister Scott?
SCOTT: No.
Here is the relevant dialogue:
KIRK: Mister Chekov, lay in a course for Troyius. Mister Sulu, impulse drive, speed factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Impulse drive, captain?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct, Mister Sulu. Sublight factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.
SCOTT: Captain? You'll not will be using warp drive? All the way on impulse. That'll take a great deal of time.
KIRK: You in a hurry, Mister Scott?
SCOTT: No.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Trek does explicitly warp in-system throughout TOS, from 'we'll be warping out of orbit a half-second after ye give the order' in NAKED TIME onward.
The only real 'warp abuse' I know of is TVH, where some nut at ILM or Harve Bennett had the BoP go to warp IN ATMOSPHERE.
Can you say transwarpsonic GIGABOOM!
(they also do it in the novel PRIME DIRECTIVE, but there is sufficient tech and pseudotech plus a massive damage issue, all of which ameliorate the WTF factor.)
The only real 'warp abuse' I know of is TVH, where some nut at ILM or Harve Bennett had the BoP go to warp IN ATMOSPHERE.
Can you say transwarpsonic GIGABOOM!
(they also do it in the novel PRIME DIRECTIVE, but there is sufficient tech and pseudotech plus a massive damage issue, all of which ameliorate the WTF factor.)
The Enterprise in TMP had yet to do any warp flow calibrations on the engines except on computer simulated runs. It had yet to run her engines at warp for real. Since the Enterprise had new engines maybe for the shakedown testing they do it away from population centers just in case something bad happens, and they don't warp into a planet, or a star, etc. After all when the Enterprise engines created the wormhole they lost helm control.
The script:
Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. one point eight hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, we must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system.
DECKER: Captain, assuming we have full warp capability, accelerating to warp seven on leaving the solar system will bring us to IP with the intruder, twenty point one hours.
KIRK: Well, Bones, do the new medical facilities meet with your approval?
McCOY: They do not. It's like working in a damned computer center.
KIRK: Programming ready?
DECKER: Program set for standard warp entry, Captain, ...but I still recommend further simulation study.
KIRK: Mister Decker, every minute brings that object closer to Earth! Engineering! Stand by for warp drive.
SCOTT (on intercom): We need further warp simulation on the flow sensors.
KIRK: Engineer, we need warp speed now!
McCOY: Jim, you're pushing. Your people know their jobs
The result was the wormhole....
KIRK: Mister Decker... Wormhole! ...Get us back on impulse power! Full reverse!
SULU: Negative helm control, Captain! Going reverse on impulse power!
UHURA: Subspace frequencies are jammed, sir. Wormhole effect!
DECKER: Negative control from inertial lag will continue twenty-two point five seconds before forward velocity slows to sub-light speed.
ILIA: Unidentified small object has been pulled into the wormhole with us, Captain! Directly ahead!
KIRK: Forcefields up, full! Put object on viewer. ...Manual override on helm.
SULU: No manual response!
ILIA: Navigational deflectors coming up.
DECKER: Wormhole distortion has over-loaded main power systems!
ILIA: Navigational deflectors inoperative, Captain. Directional control also inoperative.
The cause....
SCOTT: Captain, it was the engine imbalance that created the wormhole in the first place. ...It'll happen again if we don't correct it.
----
So that is the reason they were cautious the first time jumping to warp within the solar system, they weren't sure what was going to happen. They rushed the ship out before it was ready.
When Spock came aboard, he was able to help Scott get the warp engines balanced so they could go to warp at full speed...
Captain's log, stardate 7413.4. Thanks to Mister Spock's timely arrival, and assistance, we have the engines rebalanced into full warp capacity. Repair time less than three hours, ...which means we will now be able to intercept intruder while still more than a day from Earth.
-Chris
The script:
Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. one point eight hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, we must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system.
DECKER: Captain, assuming we have full warp capability, accelerating to warp seven on leaving the solar system will bring us to IP with the intruder, twenty point one hours.
KIRK: Well, Bones, do the new medical facilities meet with your approval?
McCOY: They do not. It's like working in a damned computer center.
KIRK: Programming ready?
DECKER: Program set for standard warp entry, Captain, ...but I still recommend further simulation study.
KIRK: Mister Decker, every minute brings that object closer to Earth! Engineering! Stand by for warp drive.
SCOTT (on intercom): We need further warp simulation on the flow sensors.
KIRK: Engineer, we need warp speed now!
McCOY: Jim, you're pushing. Your people know their jobs
The result was the wormhole....
KIRK: Mister Decker... Wormhole! ...Get us back on impulse power! Full reverse!
SULU: Negative helm control, Captain! Going reverse on impulse power!
UHURA: Subspace frequencies are jammed, sir. Wormhole effect!
DECKER: Negative control from inertial lag will continue twenty-two point five seconds before forward velocity slows to sub-light speed.
ILIA: Unidentified small object has been pulled into the wormhole with us, Captain! Directly ahead!
KIRK: Forcefields up, full! Put object on viewer. ...Manual override on helm.
SULU: No manual response!
ILIA: Navigational deflectors coming up.
DECKER: Wormhole distortion has over-loaded main power systems!
ILIA: Navigational deflectors inoperative, Captain. Directional control also inoperative.
The cause....
SCOTT: Captain, it was the engine imbalance that created the wormhole in the first place. ...It'll happen again if we don't correct it.
----
So that is the reason they were cautious the first time jumping to warp within the solar system, they weren't sure what was going to happen. They rushed the ship out before it was ready.
When Spock came aboard, he was able to help Scott get the warp engines balanced so they could go to warp at full speed...
Captain's log, stardate 7413.4. Thanks to Mister Spock's timely arrival, and assistance, we have the engines rebalanced into full warp capacity. Repair time less than three hours, ...which means we will now be able to intercept intruder while still more than a day from Earth.
-Chris
Sure.
Admiral Archer. His beagle. The NX-Alpha/Beta. The NX-01.
Of course the two films also reference bits and pieces from all over the oldStuff.
They're not REFERENCING the original series, though. They're partly copying it but mostly replacing it. A few elements carry through, but it's not a reference so much as a replay with extensive modifications.
And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined. That's at least one reason to believe that ST09 branches off from THAT universe and that Archer's timeline was separate from TOS all along.
Call me skeptical, but an assertion like that makes me want to see the list of all references, with statistical breakdown by series and/or movie.
That's semantics at this point. They are clearly referencing to the various movies, they mention Chapel, etc. You could also say that any mention of NX-01 or Archer is "carrying a few elements through" or "replaying with modifications".
Combined ? Really ? Between Archer's Beagle, the NX-01 and NX prototype, and... what, exactly ? How is 2 (correct me) references more than all other series combined when the movies are based on one of them ?
It's actually not that hard to establish considering that Voyager and DS9 had already been cancelled by the time "Broken Bow" aired and Nemesis hit theaters barely a year later.
Also including indirect references and visual cues. In particular, the experiment with Archer's Beagle is a double reference, since it basically duplicates the circumstances of Emory's so-called sub-quantum transporter without the need for going into a whole different episode (and transwarp beaming itself seems to be derived from it). The amphitheater which Enterprise depicted as the birthplace of the Federation -- and is probably still the meeting place of the Federation Council -- is also visible as a background element in San Francisco in STID.
The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later. Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.
Basically, ST09 and STID are what happens when you take the background of Enterprise and superimpose it on TOS. Beyond that, neither film makes any overt references to their 24th century counterparts at all, EXCEPT for the implication that Spock eventually becomes an ambassador and winds up trying to help the Romulans, which is indirectly a nod to "Unification".
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