Warp Drive Fuel Source

[Bry_Sinclair]

Aside from the Romulans (whose artificial quantum singularity seems to power it) every other race encountered seem to use a matter/antimatter reaction to achieve warp speeds. Short of magic mushrooms or soliton waves has any other fuel source ever been mentioned or hinted at as a way of reaching faster-than-light velocities?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It's implied that Zefram Cochrane got into space on Fusion Power.

So low level Warp might be doable on Fusion Power alone.

 

[Timo]

OTOH, it's also implied that Cochrane used matter-antimatter annihilation. That is, "intermix" is key to him achieving power for his flight. (Although arguably a gasoline engine might feature "intermix" in the carburetor, too.)

In light of recent stories, it might well be that how one obtains power is fairly irrelevant - but it's absolutely mandatory to then run that power through dilithium in order to turn it into something that warp engines can run on. And since we already have onscreen techobabble on how dilithium regulates annihilation reactions, it might be that the input is required to be of a specific sort, too.

That is, every power system for a warp engine involves a source of power; a stage that converts that power to antimatter if it isn't that already; an annihilation focus with dilithium in it; and a system that delivers the dilithium-created output to warp coils which then get appropriately excited and create a subspace field.

The original source of power for some vessels might well be fusion. After all, you have to create antimatter somehow, and if you can create it on the spot, there would be certain advantages. And Starfleet ships seem to already have fusion reactors aplenty, plus an apparently fully unified fuel system based on deuterium, which can run fusion reactors in addition to being annihilable with its anti-counterpart. To reinforce the idea, when Voyager runs out of oomph for warp, deuterium is the thing she needs to find, rather than antimatter or dilithium.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HappyMcWonderful]

Didn't they find a solution to the Breen energy-dampening doohicky based in part on something something a Klingon engineer fiddling with the tritium intermix ratio?

And I distinctly recall there being discussion from Booby Trap years back -- there was something on-screen that referenced deuterium/tritium handling procedures.

 

[Timo]

Yup, tritium for Klingons in "When It Rains". Makes sense as a fusion fuel, especially if the Klingons use a dual fuel system since deuterium-tritium fusion has advantages over deuterium-deuterium (even if those are a bit pennywise in the Trek context).

Might be starships are generally multifuel: a machine capable of forcing deuterium to fuse with deuterium could theoretically handle tritium with ease, too. Might also be there are differences there, and Klingon engines are more robust, while only a certain few Starfleet ones run on anything else besides pure deuterium. Procedural guides for handling multifuels might still be found even aboard those vessels that choke on tritium...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HappyMcWonderful]

I could see Tritium being the "leaded gas" option in Federation engines due to it's slightly radioactive tendencies, the additional particle produced during annihilation could lead to irradiation of core components and result in premature degradation of said components... and require the crew to wear radiation protection gear when near the core.

 

[Timo]

The Empire forbids anybody from spreading such damaging rumors! At the very most, there might be some absolutely minimal forehead growth over time.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HappyMcWonderful]

This would also neatly explain the neutron radiation signiture that juiced-up BOP gave off... rather than encouraging minimal forehead-growth they vented the particles overboard... I mean no one even bothers to scan for those right?

...or NOT to be... *ker-POW*

 

[Timo]

It's a double whammy: they leak neutrons to tell they're there, and their impuse exhaust has the unique scent of excess tritium for bloodhound torpedoes to sniff, even on a battlefield full of exhaust from other ships...

(Really, with a torpedo that maneuverable and seemingly aimless, there was a real worry of it locking on the E-A rather than on Chang!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LazyReader]

Quantum slipstream doesn't appear to use antimatter for propulsion.
CHAKOTAY: Some kind of new warp drive?
PARIS: It's not antimatter, it's, I don't know what it is.

Warp doesn't need Matter/antimatter, If a energy source capable of generating high energy plasma is possible.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Quantum slipstream doesn't appear to use antimatter for propulsion.
CHAKOTAY: Some kind of new warp drive?
PARIS: It's not antimatter, it's, I don't know what it is.

Warp doesn't need Matter/antimatter, If a energy source capable of generating high energy plasma is possible.

That's why I'm a fan of alternate Power Sources / Reactors.
We already have:
- Fusion
- Matter / Anti-Matter reactor
- Artificial Quantum Singularity
- Tetryon based Reactors.

 

[Deks]

Aside from the Romulans (whose artificial quantum singularity seems to power it) every other race encountered seem to use a matter/antimatter reaction to achieve warp speeds. Short of magic mushrooms or soliton waves has any other fuel source ever been mentioned or hinted at as a way of reaching faster-than-light velocities?

The fake USS Dauntless which was Arturis ship with Quantum Slipstream drive didn't use antimatter at all.
The Nacene (Caretaker) also had a Tetryon reactor which pulled VOY across the galaxy in seconds.

So that's at least TWO other species we know of that didn't use M/AM as a power source (also, VOY crew interacted with BOTH technologies up close and personal... VOY had external and internal scans of the Caretaker array (external with ship sensors, and internal with tricorders, and worked with a damaged Tetryon reactor they encountered in later seasons 'The Voyager conspiracy' which they helped repair - and if they knew nothing about that technology, then how could they help repair it?).

And the crew basically got detailed scans of the fake USS Dauntless because they worked on that ship for DAYS learning about its technology... its drive and power source too.

Also, the UFP was engaged in TNG in research of alternate power sources already (Kriega Waves for one thing - the research of which survived - and the technology was promising to say the least).
.
This is why I didn't buy into Disco S3 explanation about M/AM and dilithium still being pervasively in use or needed, when we actually SAW other more potent power sources in use which SF gained access to and had detailed sensor data on 800 years earlier - and why it STILL irritates me (but, alas, the writers managed to ignore this).

 

[HappyMcWonderful]

.
This is why I didn't buy into Disco S3 explanation about M/AM and dilithium still being pervasively in use or needed, when we actually SAW other more potent power sources in use which SF gained access to and had detailed sensor data on 800 years earlier - and why it STILL irritates me (but, alas, the writers managed to ignore this).

I've brought this up many times. In 300 years power sources for ships have changed rapidly and continue to change. From oars to sails to engines to electric drive to nuclear to gas turbine.

Every Star Trek ship from the Phoenix to a ship 900 years in the distant future MUST have exactly the same engine configuration: Dilithium, antimatter, deuterium. Every ship has to have warp coils, a warp core and the exact same details.

We know this is not the case. The TOS nacelles have details and features on them that later generations lacked. And we know from dialog that the engines apparently generate the magic IN the nacelles themselves NOT some special "warp core."

TMP and TWOK both show vastly different from TNG style engine setups. Yet we try to make those match TNG rather than say "well they probably did things differently in that era."

It's one of the canon-conceits that I get tired of when discussing technobabble. Let's look at a US Navy example: The drive on the battleship USS New Mexico is nothing like the drive on the Freedom class. Yet we don't have people looking at the Freedom class ships and then pointing to a diagram of the Battleship New Mexico and saying "these boilers are actually gas turbines and these components here that are labeled as condensers are actually emission control units and this part here, the fresh-water evaporator for boiler makeup is actually how they handled the fuel for the gas turbines."

We also do not have people looking at the USS Constitution on display and trying to figure out how those funny masts and sails functioned as gas turbines or nuclear reactors.

900 years in the future-future I would have expected Starfleet to have perfected something other than the same thing we've been discussing since the 1960s.

 

[Deks]

I've brought this up many times. In 300 years power sources for ships have changed rapidly and continue to change. From oars to sails to engines to electric drive to nuclear to gas turbine.

Every Star Trek ship from the Phoenix to a ship 900 years in the distant future MUST have exactly the same engine configuration: Dilithium, antimatter, deuterium. Every ship has to have warp coils, a warp core and the exact same details.

We know this is not the case. The TOS nacelles have details and features on them that later generations lacked. And we know from dialog that the engines apparently generate the magic IN the nacelles themselves NOT some special "warp core."

TMP and TWOK both show vastly different from TNG style engine setups. Yet we try to make those match TNG rather than say "well they probably did things differently in that era."

It's one of the canon-conceits that I get tired of when discussing technobabble. Let's look at a US Navy example: The drive on the battleship USS New Mexico is nothing like the drive on the Freedom class. Yet we don't have people looking at the Freedom class ships and then pointing to a diagram of the Battleship New Mexico and saying "these boilers are actually gas turbines and these components here that are labeled as condensers are actually emission control units and this part here, the fresh-water evaporator for boiler makeup is actually how they handled the fuel for the gas turbines."

We also do not have people looking at the USS Constitution on display and trying to figure out how those funny masts and sails functioned as gas turbines or nuclear reactors.

900 years in the future-future I would have expected Starfleet to have perfected something other than the same thing we've been discussing since the 1960s.

What's worse is that the production team keeps introducing NEW ship designs in the SAME era all the time, while simultaneously suggesting how modular/adaptive all SF ships are by design and technically even older designs CAN be upgraded to latest standards.

New power sources or FTL propulsion technologies? Forget it.
For UFP, this kind of lack of change is just unrealistic when you factor in the premise that new superpowerful technologies can be invented and used in a span of a single episode and then conveniently forgotten. But alternate viable power sources and methods of FTL are somehow unattainable.

I can buy that M/AM and dilithium could be in use for the first 100-200 years or so... but once the UFP was formed and you suddenly had the resources, technical expertise and scientific prowess of 4 different fully developed space faring species who freely worked together and exchanged knowledge... M/AM and dilithium would have likely gone the way of the dinosaur (much like money did) after the first 50-100 years of UFP's existence (and this is a generous estimate when you take into account that science and technology evolve exponentially for just one species),.

But fine, for the sake of established canon, lets say the UFP did continue to use M/AM and dilithium into the 24th century.
After TNG, DS9 and VOY have run its course, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for UFP to continue justify use of M/AM and dilithium as a power source when alternate technologies have proven to work.
By the time of Star Trek: Picard, the UFP should have switched over to a combination of Tetryon reactors, and whatever power source Arturis ship used... Kriega Waves and integrated aspects of Soliton Wave technology (if nothing else for the sake of improved efficiency).

The computing power each starship has at its disposal is ridiculous to say the least. A few words to the computer and it could have been doing R&D of new sustainable power sources in a tiny time frame.

It takes adaptive algorithms hours to days to come up with solutions to problems humans alone would need decades to find answers for in real life... and UFP is working with far more sophisticated technology to boot, having since expanded to include dozens of species in the 23rd century and finally over 150 species in the 24th century... can you imagine the scientific and technologica developments that would occur over just 5 to 10 years in such an organisation?
It would be literally very difficult to predict (much like it is now) and UFP would have been far more advanced than shown... doesn't mean you cannot tell good stories with that... you can... literature is certainly full of such possibilities... so why is it that Trek writers decided sticking with M/AM and dilithium was somehow convincing or needed?

 

[Dumbbell]

Many great empires have preferred to use matter/antimatter reactors over the course of hundreds of years instead of other seemingly more advanced technologies. The advantages of matter/antimatter to these empires must have become so great so as to create their dependencies on it.

 

[Deks]

Many great empires have preferred to use matter/antimatter reactors over the course of hundreds of years instead of other seemingly more advanced technologies. The advantages of matter/antimatter to these empires must have become so great so as to create their dependencies on it.

Perhaps... but those empires usually spread through forceful means, use monetary based systems and as a result have vested interests in creating and maintaining artificial dependencies on certain power sources in order to keep control within their borders.

The UFP is NOT an empire. It also doesn't spread through use of force, nor does it use money... and it certainly has no need in creating or maintaining artificial reliance on something as 'dirty' (and eventually unsustainable) as dilithium mining and M/AM. What would be the point? There is literally nothing to gain in doing so.
Species join UFP out of their own volition (after reaching certain societal and technological landmarks - equality, abolition of class based systems, and development of FTL technology).

Starfleet officers frequently point out inefficiencies and lack of common sense when they encounter species that created dependence on 1 specific power source that's especially dirty... which is why I cannot see the UFP within Trek doing the same mistake or remaining on M/AM and dilithium for very long beyond the 24th century.
Unless transition to new power sources was actively sabotaged within UFP by Section 31 (although I cannot understand WHY they would do such a thing) or outside elements - and nothing like that was suggested in canon.

I still posit that Disco writers messed up here plain and simple... so they either didn't know their Trek history that well or how UFP actually works, chose to intentionally ignore it for the sake of creating new type of 'drama', or just don't do well when it comes to making convincing advancements for UFP (in which case, they should have probably pushed Disco into the 25th century instead).

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I still posit that Disco writers messed up here plain and simple... so they either didn't know their Trek history that well or how UFP actually works, chose to intentionally ignore it for the sake of creating new type of 'drama', or just don't do well when it comes to making convincing advancements for UFP (in which case, they should have probably pushed Disco into the 25th century instead).

That is the correct answer.

 

[Timo]

Nothing forces us to think that the power chain of a 32nd century starship would be the same as that of a 23rd, 22nd, or 2nd century starship. All we have to accept here is that every chain features dilithium as an absolutely vital link.

Which is no worse than saying that every ship moving under internal power yesterday, today and tomorrow moves using a propeller. Sure, there used to be paddlewheels, but you get laughed out of the court for referring to that shit. Sure, we toy with magnetohydrodynamics, but we already know it's not working and does no good. And sure, your propeller may be of fancy shapes, and go by fancy names. But it's still yer one and only end effector for water propulsion.

And as said upthread, some link in the power chain needs to introduce the magic of warp into what we otherwise might discuss in real-world terms. And our choice is basically between "dilithium" and "warp coils", everything else being mundane in our well-known reference case of conventional warp (plasma conduits can be made of copper tubing, say). DIS merely wants us to choose the former over the latter.

(Also, ITRW, sails are sails, and they aren't gonna get better or go away, and we are already smart enough to conclusively figure that out. Trek may simplify things by saying that only screws exist and sails don't, but OTOH Trek fully acknowledges tachyon sailing, merely stating how incredibly inferior it is to warping.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Imaus]

I mean DIS just dropped a line that the starships from around 2200-2500 have a certain set of features that are noticeably different from other eras. So there's some background stuff for ya. I just wonder what they did from 2500 onwards?

 

[Timo]

The mandatory conceit here is that there will still be starships in the future. Once we accept that one, we're already committed to the concept that "progress" is a devil-in-the-details thing that we cannot observe except through very specific examples and dialogue references, and that it really doesn't matter whether five or a hundred or nine hundred years pass. Just as has held true for the vast majority of world history...

We get plenty of specifics in one season of DIS already. A reference to the very materials out of which the ships are made changing; the floating bits thing; the transporters being more versatile; time wars being possible (and, more intriguingly, winnable/endable, which seems to go against the very definition). Some of that is quite in-your-face, nailing this all down as "the future". Some of it makes no difference to the storylines. And the whole point of the exercise is to prevent it from making a difference, because the storylines are the one constant CBS needs to run the show, at a deep conceptual level.

Timo Saloniemi