Warp bubble and saucer separation

[bswb]

If the warp bubble encapsulates the entire ship, when the saucer section moves to "drop out of warp" by leaving the bubble, wouldn't it be torn apart the instant it breaches the warp bubble and re-enters normal space-time? For example, when the tip of the saucer breaches the warp bubble, doesn't the tip start traveling at normal space-time, and thus it would rip the whole thing apart?

Or is it like momentum in a classical physics sense, where the saucer section -- if it clears the warp bubble in an appropriately short period of time -- holds together and loses momentum until it drops to impulse?

 

[Deks]

It's probably a combo of the latter explanation, and the fact that the saucer maintains the warp field bubble around itself for the duration of deceleration.

 

[publiusr]

Just as a soap bubble can divide into two or merge into one.

 

[SoM]

You would think that the saucer would be designed to hold enough of the warp field such that it never "exits" the warp bubble in the sense of moving outside it as you may exit a room, but the bubble divides in two; after which the warping is turned down/fades out until the space inside matches the space outside, at which point the bubble can be "popped" - or pops naturally, with no active warp engine - without anything happening.

 

[C.E. Evans]

You would think that the saucer would be designed to hold enough of the warp field such that it never "exits" the warp bubble in the sense of moving outside it as you may exit a room, but the bubble divides in two; after which the warping is turned down/fades out until the space inside matches the space outside, at which point the bubble can be "popped" - or pops naturally, with no active warp engine - without anything happening.

And if impulse engines employ some sort of subspace element themselves, they may be able to sustain a "hand off" warp field for a period of time until it reaches a nearby starbase. Eventually, the warp field may decay until the saucer drops to sublight speed, but there's no way of knowing how long that takes, IMO. It could be only hours or as much as a day or two under the right conditions.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, it seems the saucer stays at rather high warp for at least the better part of a day in "Encounter at Farpoint", even though our heroes think the saucer would slow to sublight in just two minutes if forced to separate in "Brothers".

Of course, in the first case, our heroes wanted the saucer to stay at warp; in the second, they wanted it to drop to sublight. For all we know, the saucer can stay at warp indefinitely if need be, by maintaining a warp field with some means other than actual warp engines. Or alternatively the saucer has actual warp engines - this has never been denied in dialogue or plotlines, after all.

In "Arsenal of Freedom", the saucer is sent on an interstellar journey without using the stardive section for giving it an initial warp boost. This might suggest that the saucer can accelerate to warp all on its own; if it couldn't, it would have been criminally incompetent of LaForge in "Arsenal of Freedom" not to give the saucer the sort of boost that allowed a warp-speed interstellar journey in "Encounter at Farpoint".

On the basic issue of clean "warp separation", supposedly torpedoes launched at warp do it all the time. They might have their own warp field sustaining systems, considering that they also move at warp from launching ship to target sometimes. But we know that lifepods can do a warp separation as well - we even see one in "Bounty" and IIRC in "First Flight" as well. It sounds a bit unlikely that such things would have full warp engines aboard; probably some very simple gadget allows an object to leave a warp field, and only those objects that lack this simple and small gadget suffer the fate of the cable that snapped when Tucker moved from starship to starship at warp five in "Divergence"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WendellM]

FWIW, page 28 of the Sternbach/Okuda TNG Tech Manual has this on the subject: "As the Saucer Module is equipped only with impulse propulsion, computational modeling has verified that special precautions must be observed when attempting separation at high warp factors. Prior to leaving the Battle Section's warp field, the Saucer Module SIF [Structural Integrity Field], IDF [Inertial Damping Field], and shield grid are run at high output, and its four forward deflectors take over to sweep away debris in the absence of the dish on the Battle Section. Decaying warp field energy surrounding the Saucer Module is managed by the driver coil segments of the impulse engines. This energy will take, on average, two minutes to dissipate and bring the vehicle to its original sublight velocity."

 

[Timo]

OTOH, that might be part of the "deliberate disinformation" that the book supposedly features in order to confound Klingon or Romulan spies...

After all, neither "Encounter at Farpoint" nor "Arsenal of Freedom" really make sense if the above tech parameters are true. The saucer must be capable of maintaining relatively high warp for several hours if the first episode is to be accepted, and perhaps of accelerating to warp on its own if the second episode is to be accepted.

Of course, we may choose to read the TNG TM text against the writers' intent. When they say the warp bubble takes about two minutes to dissipate after high warp separation, perhaps they actually mean it takes at least two minutes when the crew does its best to bring the saucer to a halt? If the crew instead wants to maintain high warp, the saucer can easily remain FTL for days or weeks on its "impulse engines".

...Even that wouldn't explain why the saucer was separated at sublight in "Arsenal of Freedom", of course.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mtblillie]

You should also consider that warp speeds and times indicated on the "official" charts never really match what you see on screen...I would submit that it is a writers issue rather than a technical one. As much as we would like to come up with a logical reason for everything we see on screen, unfortunately there are too many cases where the right hand doesn't always know what the left is doing.

Something that always annoyed me about the subject was how they always say things like if the warp bubble is disturbed at FTL the ship will be ripped apart or something and then they have things like saucer separation at warp. I would think that by the way they talk about how hard it is to keep a stable warp field that not only would the saucer be ripped up by the sudden drop in speed and tearing through the bubble but also that the stardrive section having a huge whole in the field where the saucer is moving through would also drop out of warp and be potentially torn up as well.

 

[Captain Rob]

The TNG tech manual also indicates that the impulse engines contain subspace field generators. These generate a subspace (warp) field that is non-propulsive in itself but aids the impulse engines by reducing the mass of the ship, making it easier to move. We've seen in ENT that two ships traveling at the same speed close together on a parallel course can merge their warp fields (Enterprise and Columbia). I would assume that the subspace field generators on the primary hull impulse engines would create their own field around the primary hull to facilitate separation at warp. I think that's also in the tech manual.

 

[mtblillie]

That would make a little more sense.

 

[timelord1010]

I guess we will know in about 250 years, but somehow I think someone will figure out warp drive or jump engines (nuBSG, Starblazers, TNG episode Nth Degree) long before TOS is to take place. Especially with the effort and thought you guys put into answering the original post question.

 

[T'Girl]

I think Geordi's intent in "Arsenal of Freedom" was to simply park the saucer section somewhere safe until the battle section returned for it. If Geordi never returned they would have called for help and just waited.

 

[Timo]

Then why did LaForge tell Lieutenant Logan to fly the saucer to Starbase 103? His words were "proceed immediately"...

There's something of a discrepancy between the saucer's ability to cross significant interstellar distances with warp boost from the stardrive section in "Encounter at Farpoint" and its implied ability to cross them without that warp boost in "Arsenal of Freedom". That is, unless we assume the saucer has warp engines of its own and doesn't need any boosting. This latter idea is never directly disputed in any episode or movie, to be sure...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gagarin]

Then why did LaForge tell Lieutenant Logan to fly the saucer to Starbase 103? His words were "proceed immediately"...

There's something of a discrepancy between the saucer's ability to cross significant interstellar distances with warp boost from the stardrive section in "Encounter at Farpoint" and its implied ability to cross them without that warp boost in "Arsenal of Freedom". That is, unless we assume the saucer has warp engines of its own and doesn't need any boosting. This latter idea is never directly disputed in any episode or movie, to be sure...

Timo Saloniemi

You can proceed or head home under impulse power all the time with no chance of getting to the destination in a timely matter at the indicated speed.

They could start a course for it, even though it would take a hundred years. Obviously they'd hope to be picked up before then. Much like a hitchhiker will sometimes walk in the direction their heading, even though it would take a month of walking to get to where they need to go. Psychology? I don't know the reason.

 

[Timo]

One could argue that the saucer would get from the Minos system to SB 103 at impulse in a matter of months, if it only kept accelerating. That is, thanks to time dilation, the crew would only be a few months older at the destination, even if a century had passed for the rest of the Federation.

After all, Minos was indicated to be a seldom-visited region of space, presumably far away from UFP or ally assets (only one previous starship visit, no immediate revisit after disappearance of the first ship, vague readings on the presence or disappearance of the local population). Rather extreme survival measures could then be justified, including a flight that puts the survivors a century out of synch with their loved ones.

This still doesn't remove the discrepancy with "Encounter at Farpoint" where the saucer benefited from a warp boost, though. LaForge had little excuse not to provide that boost, since it apparently would at most have added half an hour to the plight of the away team (clearly the Q chase in "EaF" doesn't take longer than that). Basically the only good justification would be if the saucer were fine without the boost - which means it should have been warp-capable on its own.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mtblillie]

Lol that is a different way of looking at it. Plus supposedly impulse engines were like the absolute most modern version of what we would consider conventional propulsion, it was supposed to be able to go like warp .92 or something like that, not quite the speed of light but close.

The problem with time dilation is that somehow trek warp compensates for it (I assume by the whole bubble thing, and the environment inside the bubble basically being normal space), so that may not quite work. Plus it may not take them long from their perspective, but the universe would have aged much faster and so it would still be a big deal.

I have to agree it makes much more sense that they would set coarse for the nearest starbase rather than just sit there or go to a random spot, this is actually consistant with other similar situations, such as when the captured Jem'Hadar ship was damaged and could only move at impulse speed, they still set coarse for the nearest starbase, even though it was going to take them 100 years.

 

[Hatchet2k4]

I doubt they could go a century without *someone* picking them up on their sensors tho. They'd definiely get home faster than that. Especially if they still have communications.

 

[Timo]

There'd probably be zero "random" friendly traffic in the region, since the only way the Federation learned of the disappearence of the Minosian population was via long range probes. But Starfleet did send the Drake, and when she disappeared, they sent the Enterprise. And they didn't even wait the customary half a year like they always did in TOS, suggesting that they did possess the resources to prioritize several starships on this mystery. Somebody would probably have come looking when the Enterprise failed to respond.

Yet it does seem that realtime interstellar communications between Minos and the Federation didn't exist, probably due to too great a distance. It would then definitely have helped if the saucer got closer to the UFP - and better still, if it did so at warp speed. I can't imagine any reason not to launch the saucer at warp, since it's clearly possible as per the pilot episode, and since it's clearly much faster than impulse. Even if the saucer only stays at warp for a day or so, that's still a significant leap towards the UFP, compared with crawling ahead at impulse.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Except that EAF makes a big point of saucer separation at Warp being extremely dangerous. Last time it may have only been possible with an android at the controls, which LaForge was lacking.