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Warp 10 ≠ Infinite Velocity

Navarro

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
It was said in Voyager that Warp 10 is equal to infinite velocity and is thus perceived an impassable barrier. Yet in TOS the Enterprise once reached at least Warp 14, implying Warp Factor ∞ + 4. I suspect Spock would regard this interpretation as "highly illogical."

"Infinite" is a theoretical concept used to describe the breadth of a thing in which we've not yet calculated in totality. Thus, as far as we know, it's "infinite." This is comparable to a "bottomless pit" which hasn't had its depth measured and is thus theoretically infinite or Pi in that we've not calculated it to the final digit and so it theoretically repeats infinitely, but we aren't certain. Newtonian Mechanics would argue that infinite velocity is achievable, but we've already determined that the law fails when approaching the speed of light. One must at that juncture apply Relativistic Mechanics, which doesn't allow for infinite velocities. Consequently, current science doesn't allow for infinite velocities and we've also observed starships travel beyond Warp 10 in TOS, thus Warp 10 does not appear to equal infinite velocity.

This is to say nothing of the concept of infinite velocity in any case, which LT Paris described as occupying "every point in the universe simultaneously." As two objects can't occupy the same point in space-time simultaneously, this would appear an excellent means of perhaps not destroying the universe itself, but annihilating its contents. This capability may allow for an excellent doomsday weapon, in which the entire universe would be motivated to attack any empire aggressing against your own, as said aggressor presents an existential threat not only to yourself but to all occupants of the universe given the implication of doomsday retaliation should you be defeated. However, it doesn't appear to be a very practical means of travel.

If it wasn't for that point, it might be arguable that the conflict presented by TOS Warp 14 travel and VOY Warp 10 travel could be the result of an adjustment to the velocities associated with each warp factor. An analogy might be an adjustment from an "imperial" warp velocity measurement system to a "metric" system. For example, perhaps Warp 20 in the TOS era measurement system equals Warp 10 when utilizing the measurement system common to VOY. However, given the apparent illogic of occupying "all points in the universe simultaneously" as a means of travel, this appears unlikely.

I propose that instead, the Voyager crew are not physicists by trade nor warp theorists and in their desperation to reach Federation space intact and in their lifetimes, and as a result of ignorance of the science, produced this experiment out of pseudoscience, desperation and Federation optimism. Unsurprisingly, the experiment failed. Furthermore, they've probably heard of this "Warp 10 threshold" at some point in their lifetimes, and erroneously interpreted it to be physically impassable despite that this barrier had been breached in TOS, and erroneously arrived at "infinite velocity" either on their own or as a result to exposure to pseudoscientific misinterpretations or misrepresentations prior to the current voyage, or archived in Voyager's database.

Furthermore, they're unaware of the complete history of warp travel, to include the velocities rarely achieved in the TOS era. Meanwhile, TOS era ships were capable of greater maximum velocities than VOY era vessels for whatever reason. While this may seem strange, there are modern examples of similar events. For example, the Concorde passenger airliner was capable of reaching a velocity of 1354mph and the Tupolev Tu-144 was capable of achieving 1510mph. However, both aircraft designs have been retired from service due to issues with safety and expenditure, and today you're left to travel instead on the Airbus A380 which is capable of only 676mph, less than half the velocity of the Tupolev.

It could be that the Federation opted for slower ships in the VOY era due to safety, resource or fiscal limitations. After all, high-warp velocities like Warp 14 were extremely rare, and cost multipliers are expensive. Why spend double on a starship to rarely achieve Warp 14 when you tend to not require greater than Warp 9.975 in any case. Thus, the Warp 10 threshold may be a limitation of VOY era engine design, not a maximum velocity scientifically achievable. The Voyager crew then mistook the maximum capabilities of Voyager for maximum velocity possible according to present scientific models. Ignorance, desperation and optimism.
 
You are aware that the warp scale was revamped in later Trek, correct? Warp 14 on the TOS scale would probably be Warp 9.9-something on the TNG-VOY scale.

This has been thoroughly discussed in the Trek Tech forum at least twice in recent months.

Kor
 
By the rules of the nutty episode "Threshold" (which was conceived after staring at the time/warp speed chart chart in the Star Trek Encyclopedia for too long), they went at infinity-lizard-tranformation speed. Which is about three steps faster than plaid from Spaceballs.

Now let's never speak of it again.
 
Everyone goes "warp 13" in that episode, and only warp 13. We have to assume that Starfleet has finally mastered some sort of Transwarp engine, and they use the term "warp 13" to refer to it. In like every other episode in that last season of TNG, they kept bringing up the whole "Warp 5 speed limit environmental protection" thing, so maybe they don't use the same warp drive anymore.

I think the warp 10 barrier is mentioned in TNG too.
 
Because with the development of faster warp speeds being commonly attainable, saying "Warp 9.975" is cumbersome.

They just renamed several of the "Warp 9.x" whatevers to different numbers.
 
Warp 10 = infinite velocity.

Warp 13= a finite speed.

These two do not necessarily contradict. They could both be true, even within the same warp scale.
 
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"warp 13" was a thing in "All Good Things" because the writer had either not seen or ignored the edict in the Star Trek Encyclopedia (which is the sole reason for "Threshold" existing") saying warp 10 was infinite velocity.
 
The TOS Enterprise obtained Warp 14 under her own power or modification of existing components 2 or 3 times, Nomad could tarvel and fire weapons at Warp 15.
 
That the warp scale changed after TOS and before TNG is never stated in dialogue, but is clearly implicit: the concept of warp 10 being infinite speed is mentioned in "Time Squared", where Riker rather flippantly says that exceeding this speed would equate time travel (you arrive before you left, doh!).

That the warp scale changed again after TNG and before "All Good Things.." is never stated in dialogue, either, but it's clearly a deliberate feature of the episode, intended to show how things are different in the future. Whether the future warp scale still denotes infinite speed by some warp factor or another is unknown.

That there may have been even more changes of warp scale is a possible explanation for discrepancies between quoted speeds in various episodes. But it's a pretty extreme and OTOH pretty futile rationalization for those...

"Occupying every point of the universe at once" sounds fine as a definition of infinite speed. Just make sure you occupy every point for an infinitely short time and Wolfgang Pauli won't notice!

Being everywhere at once is also a good reason not to use warp 10 for getting home. If you are everywhere, you aren't actually anywhere much, least of all where you want to be. Which explains how Paris always ended up pretty much where he left, despite going places.

And it's not as if the new invention would be a "we'll go faster and faster till we go infinitely fast" drive - it's more like "we'll jump to infinite speed if not infinitely quickly, then at least uncontrollably quickly". It doesn't appear easy, perhaps not even possible, to do "warp ten minus" and merely move really, really fast. Which is all for the better, because sidestepping issues like acceleration also sidesteps obvious complications.

Timo Saloniemi
 
"warp 13" was a thing in "All Good Things" because the writer had either not seen or ignored the edict in the Star Trek Encyclopedia (which is the sole reason for "Threshold" existing") saying warp 10 was infinite velocity.

I can virtually guarantee you that the use of Warp 13 was a deliberate act by the writers to show that warp tech had evolved in the 25 intervening years .
 
Right. As we already said, it was a different scale.

Never said onscreen, and as people have so endlessly, pedantically, face punchingly explained at length, only that matters.

No one ever said "different scale", so we assume when anyone says a warp factor, it's the same one.
 
Kirk and Sulu's era of ships were "half as fast" as Janeway's ship, yet USS Enterprise under Kirk was eventually modified to travel at warp 11 for 300 years and held the fleet speed record at the time of the testing of USS Excelsior....with at least a known speed of warp 14.1. Not counting the time she was towed to warp 22 by a ship traveling at warp 36. Which in the old warp factor cubed scale, one would be able to cross the galaxy in a little over two years at warp 36. Which in Picard's time would be something like Warp 9.9995 I suppose.
 
That the warp scale changed after TOS and before TNG is never stated in dialogue, but is clearly implicit: the concept of warp 10 being infinite speed is mentioned in "Time Squared", where Riker rather flippantly says that exceeding this speed would equate time travel (you arrive before you left, doh!).

That the warp scale changed again after TNG and before "All Good Things.." is never stated in dialogue, either, but it's clearly a deliberate feature of the episode, intended to show how things are different in the future. Whether the future warp scale still denotes infinite speed by some warp factor or another is unknown.

That there may have been even more changes of warp scale is a possible explanation for discrepancies between quoted speeds in various episodes. But it's a pretty extreme and OTOH pretty futile rationalization for those...

"Occupying every point of the universe at once" sounds fine as a definition of infinite speed. Just make sure you occupy every point for an infinitely short time and Wolfgang Pauli won't notice!

Being everywhere at once is also a good reason not to use warp 10 for getting home. If you are everywhere, you aren't actually anywhere much, least of all where you want to be. Which explains how Paris always ended up pretty much where he left, despite going places.

And it's not as if the new invention would be a "we'll go faster and faster till we go infinitely fast" drive - it's more like "we'll jump to infinite speed if not infinitely quickly, then at least uncontrollably quickly". It doesn't appear easy, perhaps not even possible, to do "warp ten minus" and merely move really, really fast. Which is all for the better, because sidestepping issues like acceleration also sidesteps obvious complications.

Timo Saloniemi
The moment infinite velocity is defined as you described, and as was described in Star Trek, it becomes an apparent impossibility, for the reasons I stated in the original post. In short, one cannot occupy the same point in space-time as another object, nor could one occupy the same point in space-time as all other objects contained within the universe simultaneously. This would appear to imply the destruction of both yourself and the other object(s).

If it was possible, as Star Trek suggests, then this would seem to imply that space-time is an illusion. If you occupy all points in space-time simultaneously, then every component of you does the same. If each individual quark contained within you also occupies each point in space-time simultaneously, then each individual quark is itself the universe. All points in space-time are thus occupied myriad times over, but more profoundly, one is uniformly distributed throughout the universe, and each point in the universe uniform. The universe could then be interpreted as a single point.

Nothing was destroyed as a result of utilizing infinite velocity, occupying all points in space-time simultaneously, because this is the base nature of the universe, a single point, where space-time is an illusion. Otherwise, if space-time wasn't an illusion, then multiple objects occupying the same point in space-time would result in the destruction of all objects involved.

This issue could be simply attributed to an artifact of writing, as with the "different scale" argument. It may also be attributed to Star Fleet officers misinterpreting science, as I argued in the original post. It could also be that the universe is in fact a single point, and space-time an illusion. While I'm certain the writers didn't intend such an interpretation, the implication is never-the-less profound, with effects ranging from Big Bang Theory to perhaps Simulation Hypothesis and further. The impact on both science and philosophy would be immensely significant.

After all, if we are collectively a single point, then all beings and all objects are one. The individual is an illusion; we are truly one with each other and with the universe itself. If space-time is an illusion, then so are you and I; there can only be we. Perhaps the Borg have been right all along, and truly, "we are Borg," all of us, or rather the single entity which is "we" is. I suppose this would have religious implications as well, as one could argue that the individual is an illusory aperture through which the god experiences itself, and we are thus collectively "god." Whatever the case, I feel that had the writers recognized the implications of what they've written, and explored this concept in subsequent episodes, those episodes would have been fascinating.
 
It's quite possible the story originally explored much more metaphysical themes as you suggest. It was written by Mike De luca and sold as a freelance script. It's pretty standard for a story to go through drastic changes after that, and will often be dumbed down for TV audiences. I think it's his only Star Trek writing credit ever.

It's pretty clear in the TNG era shows that warp 10 is the warp barrier. It simply cannot be crossed. The exception of All Good Things was probably done for simple reasons of impressing the audience that it's the future, but there are better explanations we could come up with.

TOS simply has no warp barrier. They can go as fast as the ship will hold together at. By adding this barrier in the later series, they are world building, and adding complexity. It's a good thing. You gotta have some limits in a world with limitless technology.

Back to Threshold, it feels like an anthology story, like an episode of the twilight zone. There are no strings tying it to the ongoing story arcs of season 2, and it's one of the few "incidents" to never ever be referenced again in any way for the entire remainder of the series. They occasionally use "Warp 10" metaphorically after that, as in "Rumors travel at warp 10 on this ship," but that's about as far as it goes.
 
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