WTF is this? This is the official WB/DC trolling & flaming thread. We don’t need that kind of shit here!
Warner bros announce superhero films through 2020
- Thread starter JoeZhang
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WTF is this? This is the official WB/DC trolling & flaming thread. We don’t need that kind of shit here!
@TREK_GOD_1 and @JD, that will be quite enough. You do not need to perpetuate your personal squabbles.
@Turtletrekker , remember to use the edit function and combine posts instead of having a series of individual posts.
And any critique of moderator / admin actions should be addressed in that forum dedicated to that function, not in here
And any critique of moderator / admin actions should be addressed in that forum dedicated to that function, not in here
No arguments there, the minute Thor gets punted down to Earth the movie comes to a grinding halt and it never really gets back any momentum.
To be quite honest, I haven't seen Thor since it came out, so it's very possible, even probable, that I missed some of what was going on in the movie. I'll just stick to talking about WW, which I know far better, if you don't mind.
First off, people get settled in their beliefs over time. Maybe that's different for a person who stays physically young for thousands of years, but we don't really have a referrence for that in reality, so it's really up to the creators to decide how to depict such a beings psychology. Besides, Diana did indeed question things, like the decisions of her own mother and queen, to the point of disobeying her.
She knew the team. Not intimately, but she witnessed something from each of them. She learned of Charlie's nightmares, as well as the lust for life hidden inside him. She learned of Sameer being denied his heart's passion because of his ethnicity. She learns that the apparent opportunistic smuggler Chief Napi is living off the scraps left to his people after they've been almost wiped out, and he still finds it in his heart to befriend a man whose people were the ones doing the wiping out. And she learns that Steve is deeply conflicted between his ideals and the wall of cynicism he's build to protect himself from all the horror of man he's had to witness, who seemingly wouldn't stop the destruction of a whole village of innocent people, but who still sacrificed his own life for the sake of others. Finally, she learns that Ares, who she was brought up to see as evil incarnate, is not in fact the source of all evil, but that good and evil are inside every man and woman, and it's up to us to embrace one or the other.
Truthfully, yes, the villain was the weakpoint of Wonder Woman. It made sense narratively to not make him be the one behind pushing all fronts of the Great War towards confrontation, but it ended up with Ares being basically just an opportunistic bystander. I also wasn't a fan of turning Zeus and Ares into avatars for the Judea-Christian God and Lucifer, nor am I a fan of Diana being the daughter of Zeus, but the hero's journey in the movie was pretty strong.
So it's okay for WW to be thousands of years old and set in her ways and change, but not Thor?
I mean sure, the WW movie refused to put her in any real danger nor give her any real flaws compared to Thor...
And Thor somehow couldn't know the people he met on Earth when he got used to being powerless? He couldn't feel remorse for what his own actions had wrought on his people and family?
I think it was dumb of them to wipe out all the Gods like that, it robbed up of future movie potential like Hades leading an army to take over Olympus and Diana having to stop him. Stuff like that.
You didn't think she changed by the end of the movie?
So, just because she doesn't lose her powers, she's not in any real danger?! She goes up against the god powerful enough to kill all the other gods, you think she wasn't in real danger there?
And you can't call her naive in one moment and then claim her to be without flaws in the next. She thinks she's got it all figured out from the beginning, but it turns out she was so wrong, she even killed the wrong guy. Not to mention that she couldn't save those villagers, or even Steve.
Again, I've seen the movie once or twice, years ago. It was wrong of me to try and compare two movies of which I only know one really well.
Yes, it was a mistake to kill off all the gods off-screen before the story even begins. Luckily, Hades is the loophole they could use in the sequels, as he, the Lord of Death, by definition can not die. Therefore, he must still be around, and as master of the Underworld, it is in his power to bring back those who died before.
That was retcon introduced in the comics, so you can't really hold that one against the movie.
A little bit. But just a little.
She's in no danger from the German Soldiers, and when she fights Ares once she gets her second wind from Steve getting fridged she becomes totally invulnerable to everything he could throw at her. Even in BvS she's not hurt by Doomsday...yet somehow can't beat Steppenwolf who is clearly weaker.
Compare that to how Thor kept getting pasted by Hela and had to go outside the Box to stop her because the "Discover your inner strength" cliche failed.
Being Naive isn't a flaw, not compared to the kind of personal flaws we see from Marvel. But this typical of DC's characters. They're more archetypal and flawless.
I doubt they'll be that creative.
Although they didn't have to follow the comics' lead on that, given how much else they changed. It was a pretty controversial retcon in the comics, the sort of thing I fully expect to be re-retconned away as a hoax at some point (if it hasn't already been), so I was surprised that the filmmakers decided to use it. I felt it kind of undermined the film's feminist cred to make Diana essentially an instrument of one male deity's conflict with another male deity.
Well, you could, since the movie doesn't take anything else from the New 52. Besides, the retcon itself was retconned before the movie came out, and you can bet Geoff Johns knew about that, and considering how inconsequential it was in the movie, it would have been easy to edit that part out without doing harm to the narrative.
But then, the recent arc by James Robinson ignored the retcon of the retcon, so I'm not sure the people at DC even know themselves anymore what's going on.
Not as much as Thor did in his first movie, I take it.
Yes, she is. She's not bulletproof, you know. That's what her deflecting the bullets with her bracelets is all about. Sure, she is more powerful than the soldiers, but there were a lot of them.
Yes, her poorly defined powers at the end of the movie is one of the films flaws.
She couldn't beat Doomsday, either. That's why Superman sacrifised himself. And going by the movies, I'm not sure the DCEU Steppenwolf actually is weaker than DCEU Doomsday. At least not clearly.
I haven't seen Ragnarok, yet, and once more, I'm done comparing WW to Thor.
You've stopped reading comics in the 1960s, have you?!
Probably, but we'll see.
Thor actually didn't change TOO much, since he was never a bad guy in the first place. In fact the nice thing about the writing is that Thor and Loki slowly switch places as the story goes on. Thor becoming more thoughtful and restrained (like Loki) makes him more of a hero and Loki becoming more assertive and blatant in his actions (like Thor) ends up making him the villain of the piece.
Yet never once is she hurt by them. If they wanted to show she could be hurt, showing her getting shot and injured would've done so.
Especially since those powers don't show in JL when they would've made things easier.
He was weaker than Superman, who was weaker than Doomsday. Superman mopped the floor with him in seconds, while Doomsday killed him. WW had an easier time fighting DD than Steppenwolf for some reason.
DC's been trying to make their characters less archetypal do-gooders since around the 80s, to mixed success.
The WW movie was good, so at least there's some goodwill.
I see.
So, how come we didn't need to see Captain America, Spider-Man, Falcon or Ant-Man getting shot and injured to acknowledge that they aren't bulletproof?
He was weaker than Superman, who was weaker than Doomsday. Superman mopped the floor with him in seconds, while Doomsday killed him. WW had an easier time fighting DD than Steppenwolf for some reason.[/QUOTE]
Considering what was necessary to beat Steppenwolf the first time around, the narrative problem was more about how easily Superman beat him. And as I couldn't even start to say what kind of powers Diana had at the end of her movie, I've no problem with these undefined powers never showing up again.
Well, that's one way of putting it. I'd say the writers and editors at DC have started to flesh out the characters, defining them better. Like Denny O'Neil did with Ollie Queen and Hal Jordan during his legendary run in the 70s, portraying Ollie as a bleeding heart loud-mouth, and Hal as essentially a cop prone to mistake order for justice.
True, the DC heroes are still archetypes at their core. But they've become so much more than that, so reducing them to these archetypes is neither accurate nor fair.
Wait, what?!
Choose life ...
Because their stories do a good enough job putting them in actual danger that we don't need to see it. WW was too scared to put Diana in real danger.
So DC is pretty bad when it comes to consistency and thinking things through. Although it didn't seem to take much to stop Steppenwolf before, in that flashback.
No one really cared about Ollie, seeing him rightfully as a Batman knock-off until O'Neil recreated him. Hal Jordan has suffered from character inconsistencies and mental instability for decades though.
They TRY to make them more than archetypes.
WW was better done than the other DCEU movies, so I'm willing to give Jenkins the benefit of the doubt when it comes to future plotlines.
Again. Soldiers. Bullets. Granades. Lots of them. Real danger.
They understandibly didn't want to take half an hour for that flashback, so it's obviously condensed. But it took the armies of Atlantis, Themyscira, the "tribes of man", Green Lanterns, and the Greek Gods, including Ares. Also see how easy he had it taking the Mother Boxes from the Amazons and Atlanteans, and he was established as pretty damn powerful. My guess is that Superman wiping the floor with him was due to the mandated two hour runtime. In-universe, it could be explained with Superman coming back from death more powerful than before.
Are you done shifting the goalposts?
I guess whether they accomplished it is a matter of taste, so debating it is moot without established criteria.
So is dealing with smug and petty Marvel fanboys in a D.C. thread.
So is dealing with smug and petty Marvel fanboys in a D.C. thread.
