Warner bros announce superhero films through 2020
- Thread starter JoeZhang
- Start date
I'm sorry, but that article smacks of "amateur online pundintry" for several reasons:
1) Everything that Joss added was requested by Zack
2) We don't know that Zack would not have made the same editing choices that Joss made
3) Danny Elfman being hired would have had to have been Zack-approved due to DGA guidelines
4) Very little of the material that we can definitively say was cut from the film by Joss actually has any significant effect on the overall narrative
1) Everything that Joss added was requested by Zack
2) We don't know that Zack would not have made the same editing choices that Joss made
3) Danny Elfman being hired would have had to have been Zack-approved due to DGA guidelines
4) Very little of the material that we can definitively say was cut from the film by Joss actually has any significant effect on the overall narrative
Whatever Whedon did, it was to the movie's benefit. JL is the first movie with Snyders involvement (and no, Wonder Woman doesn't count Snyder fanatics) that wasn't hot garbage, and its all because Whedon made it tolerable. He couldn't make it great, but at least it was decent. I actually liked the characters (outside of the sentient log that was Cyborg). I'm including Superman in that, and he was terrible in MoS and especially bad in BvS. Now, if Whedon had just made JL from the ground up instead of having to salvage Snyder's mess it might have actually been great. Hopefully the DCEU sees Snyder put in the role of "producer in name only for PR purposes" and we keep the DCEU moving farther and farther away from the soulless, moody, grimdark crap Snyder brought to the table.
Putting aside my disagreements with your opinions, that's not how things work.
That seems very unlikely. After Snyder left the production, he wouldn't have had any control over whatever notes Warner Bros. may have given Whedon.
And even if Whedon was trying to carry out Snyder's wishes, he obviously would've done it differently than Snyder would have. Give the same task to two different people and it will be done two different ways. That's just human nature, especially in something as personal as creativity.
See above. No two creators are ever going to make identical choices about anything -- even if they have generally similar sensibilities, which Snyder and Whedon manifestly don't.
Zack brought Joss on to write new scenes for the film in March, nearly two months before he (Zack) made the decision to step aside, and at that point Joss would likely have already completed the additional rewrites.
Also, because of DGA guidelines, Warner Bros. could not have contractually cut Zack out of the postproduction process entirely - even though he voluntarily stepped down - without DGA arbitration, which didn't happen (because we would've heard about it if it had).
Last edited:
You must know I already know that. I'm not a newcomer to this discussion. And you're changing the subject, because we were talking about the editing, not the writing. It's cheating to move the goalposts, because we're not talking about what happened before Snyder left, we're talking about what happened after he left. And what is written, what is filmed, and what is edited are three very different things. Snyder having control over the first does not equate to having control over the latter two. Like I said, give the same task to two different people and you will get two different results. That should be self-evident.
I'm not saying that they did. I'm saying that it's impossible for two different people to make a film in exactly the same way even if they're trying to. You're mistaking intentions for results. You're saying that just because they were trying for the same goal, they therefore would have executed it in identical ways. And that is a nonsensical premise, because nothing human beings do is that deterministic, least of all their artistic endeavors. Changing the people involved does change the results, even if the marching orders are the same.
DigificWriter, you seem very willing to accept corporate spin doctoring as gospel truth. Of course WB isn't going to say, "When it became obvious Justice League had turned out to be another grimdark Snyder fiasco, we eased him out and brought in somebody we hoped to God could salvage the thing." Of course they're going to claim Snyder blessed the whole thing and that they knew exactly what they were doing the entire time, and absolutely not dancing a polka on their dicks yet again. Doesn't mean a word of it should be accepted as bearing any remotest resemblance to what actually went on behind the scenes.
This is not "corporate spin doctoring"; its documented fact as verified by some of the most respected news entities in the entertainment industry and by even the most cursory of examinations of the rules and rights that govern the conduct of directors as specified and enforced by the Directors' Guild of America.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. My intent is to push back against the claims that Warner Bros. hacked Snyder's film to pieces and had Joss create something entirely new, and to do so by using documented and verified facts, both as it concerns the timeline of events regarding Joss' involvement and the scope and extent thereof and as it concerns the rules that Joss, as an interim directorial surrogate, would have been required to operate under.
Much of what has been claimed in regards to what Joss did during postproduction versus what Zack did during Principal Photography and might well have done during postproduction had circumstances been different has been predicated on either flat-out misinformation or an inaccurate or incomplete understanding of the situation, its timeline of events, and the reality of what Joss and the studio could and couldn't have done based on the nature of the sitiation in which they found themselves.
I recognize that it's impossible to know whether or not Zack's 'final cut' would have looked exactly the same as the 'final cut' delivered by Joss, but the facts as documented, as well as DGA rules, indicate that it is far more likely for there to have been more similarities between them than there would have been differences.
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/17/zack-snyder-hasnt-seen-justice-league-yet/
Come on, get it through your thick skull - this movie isn't anything like Snyder's! That's why he doesn't want to see it - it's too painful for him to see someone screwing with his vision. The DGA rules shit you keep forcing down our throats is completely irrelevant. It's a civil matter - if Snyder doesn't sue it doesn't get enforced. Simple.
Come on, get it through your thick skull - this movie isn't anything like Snyder's! That's why he doesn't want to see it - it's too painful for him to see someone screwing with his vision. The DGA rules shit you keep forcing down our throats is completely irrelevant. It's a civil matter - if Snyder doesn't sue it doesn't get enforced. Simple.
I'll post some more articles so that you can pretend that you know more about Hollywood than these people who write about it for a living.
https://nerdist.com/every-way-zack-snyders-justice-league-changed-nerdist-news/
http://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/zack-snyders-version-of-justice-league/ (this one actually claims to have seen Snyder's version)
http://www.dailynews.com/2017/11/15...tice-league-after-zack-snyder-family-tragedy/
https://www.inverse.com/article/39137-justice-league-directors-cut-cinematographer-sound-interview
https://nerdist.com/every-way-zack-snyders-justice-league-changed-nerdist-news/
http://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/zack-snyders-version-of-justice-league/ (this one actually claims to have seen Snyder's version)
http://www.dailynews.com/2017/11/15...tice-league-after-zack-snyder-family-tragedy/
https://www.inverse.com/article/39137-justice-league-directors-cut-cinematographer-sound-interview
As I've pointed out, you're making assumptions contrary to the facts. We were hearing about WB's efforts to lighten the tone of Justice League long ago, before it was even filmed. As soon as Batman v Superman came out and was savaged for its dark tone, we began hearing news reports about WB making changes and trying to lighten up JL in the script phase. Also, we know that Whedon was brought in to do rewrites before Snyder left due to a family tragedy. You're ignoring facts that were already matters of public record long before Snyder left the production.
Yes, and the misunderstanding is yours, because I am not the one making those claims. You're confusing me with the other people you're arguing with, and thus you aren't hearing what I'm actually saying. I am not aligned with those others. As you just saw above, I disagree completely with The Realist's assumptions, since they're easily disproven by the facts. But your position is also erroneous, because it's contrary to basic common sense to claim that two different creators would do things in exactly the same way. You're both wrong, in different ways. Because the truth, as with most things in life, is in the middle ground between the extreme positions. And clinging rigidly to opposite extremes just makes it impossible to reach an understanding in the middle ground.
But that doesn't make it legitimate to say there would be no differences. This rephrasing is what you should've said in the first place.
Patty Jenkins admitted what the rational among us already understood: Snyder shaped Wonder Woman, as in the case of all DCEU films. It was not made in a vacuum apart from his creative hand and general tone of the franchise, which stands in contrast to your opinion.
The DCEU takes its characters seriously, as opposed to other franchises where its overdosing on FX and routines best suited for The Laugh Factory.
Last edited:
Not seeing how any of this is fundamentally incompatible with what I wrote. It also seems to me you said much the same thing yourself in an earlier post:
Hmm, yes, Flash falling onto Wonder Woman's boobs, truly the height of cinema.
The difference is in the timing. You appear to be assuming that the attempt to lighten the movie only happened after Snyder filmed it. But that attempt began much earlier, in the initial script phase of the movie. Also, you're assuming that Snyder was removed in order to replace him with Whedon, which is grossly misremembering the sequence of events. Whedon was brought on as a script doctor before Snyder left, and the only reason he then took over as director was because of Snyder's departure to deal with a family tragedy. Look, I'm no fan of Snyder's filmmaking, but I think it's awful and offensive to demean a father's grief over the death of his daughter by reducing it to part of some paranoid conspiracy theory.
I liked Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice, but for the first time I can think of I agree with you on most of this.
Snyder, who I've generally liked in the past, has to stay gone. Put Whedon in charge.
@Christopher, I've read through my previous posts, and can't find any instances where I directly said that there weren't any differences between what Joss did and what Snyder did.
@crookeddy, if you refuse to acknowledge the facts, which have been enumerated several times by both myself and @Christopher, there's no point in trying to argue with you, so you believe what you want and I'll believe what is actually true.
@crookeddy, if you refuse to acknowledge the facts, which have been enumerated several times by both myself and @Christopher, there's no point in trying to argue with you, so you believe what you want and I'll believe what is actually true.
The relevance of all of which would be greatly enhanced had I asserted anything about when attempts at humor were first introduced to the script or when Whedon initially entered the production, or said a blessed thing about Snyder's daughter. And I hardly think it's a "paranoid conspiracy theory" to suggest a studio might be less than publicly truthful about the behind-the-scenes maneuvering on a troubled multimillion dollar production.
Now there is one vapid, worthless piece of crap, beginning from the very premise that a theatrical trailer can be assumed to accurately represent a commercial movie.
I'd say "nice try," but...naw.