Waltz and Dukat

[Navaros]

There was a lot to him before. But the Gul Dukat we all know and love died along with Ziyal in Sacrifice of Angels. After that, he had no reason to pretend anymore, and the demon was allowed full play. Had Ziyal lived, maybe Behr could've been wrong, maybe she could have helped him graft that mask of gentility and kindness onto his heart, make it no longer a mask. But Damar killed that just as surely as he killed Ziyal, and all that was left was a hate-filled, vengeful husk of a man.

I believe they should have killed him after SoA

I hated, hated, HATED, with pure malice, Sisko's line in Waltz: he is pure evil.

if nothing else, that was revisionist writing on the part of TPTB.

Two possibilities here. One, this is Sisko's belief, and we're not beholden to agree. Remember, this is the man who used biogenic weapons against Maquis settlements without Starfleet orders, and the man who was an accomplice (at best) to a double-murder in order to get the Romulans on the Federation's side of the war. Sisko has a demonstrable problem in demonizing his enemy, as we can see in Eddington, Picard/Locutus, and Solok, and now in Dukat.

The other possibility is that Sisko's right, in stating that he is - present tense - evil. Not that he was evil, he is evil. It's not revisionist writing if the implication is that losing Ziyal (and his empire) drove him over the edge and ripped away forever the mask he'd been wearing. It's unfortunate in that it's painting a psychotic, insane person as evil, but that's one commonly-accepted belief, and the nature of evil is a debate for another thread.

I would agree about killing him after SoA, except that I thought Covenant was a very good episode, and the intentionally-mythic Emissary/Anti-Emissary plot started in TotP was a good idea, if somewhat flawed in execution.

It's presented in a way so as the audience is supposed to be beholden to the Sisko's opinion about Dukat being pure evil and accept the nonsense BS that they tried to retcon into Dukat's character (ie: he really wanted to massacre all the Bajorans etc.). Definitely some major revisionist history going on there that contradicts earlier episodes which show Dukat helping to improve the quality of life of Bajorans and also going out of his way to not massacre them (ie: Civil Defense).

They didn't present Sisko's anti-Dukat spiel on-screen in a way that says Dukat used to be good and then became evil. Rather they added that nonsense BS retcon to try to force Behr's opinion that he was always evil down the audience's throat.

As for Dukat going insane because Ziyal died, that too is very ridiculous. He was fine before he met Ziyal, and he would likewise continue to be fine after she died. And if he was going to blame anyone for killing Ziyal, it should have been Damar who murdered her rather than Sisko who had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

There is no reason why Dukat had to be an anti-Sisko. The only way that could have been done well is if they made the Pah-Wraiths into sympathetic entities with a perfectly valid point of view that are just as good, if not better, than the wormhole aliens, which indeed could have made for one of the best out of any Trek storylines rather than one of the very worst, which is what they actually did with that was, by going for good vs. evil caricature instead of the complexity like Dukat has for 6 years prior to Waltz.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

The way I see it, by human standards Dukat WAS always evil. Now by Cardassian standards...that's another story.

Whether he tried to save a few Bajorans and improve conditions while in command of Terok Nor or not, he still was responsible for many of their deaths, and the whole comfort woman thing. To me that is evil. I'm sure they could have bought in another more hard-ass evil Cardassian to command the station that would have been even tougher on the Bajorans, sure..but Dukat still had a huge part in the enslavement of an entire culture.

I've never had a huge problem with what they did with Dukat at the end of the series. Some people here dismiss Dukat as being a "moustache twirler" at the end, but I disagree.

I didn't care for the pah wraith/dumb red eyes stuff as much...but I loved seeing him actually become a Bajoran, the irony of that was amazing! And I loved seeing him play off of Kai Winn.

Dukat is a schemer and a manipulator, and we get to see a lot of that side of him in season 7.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

As far as I remember, while most of the Weyouns were loyal to the Founders and never questioned any of the orders, the one that actually developed independent thought and morality (I think he was Weyoun 6?) still choose to believe in Odo as his God... So, Vorta are actually capable of thinking for themselves and developing conscience. Even though they still need to look up to Founders for orders. Weyoun 6 exchanged one sets of gods for another god of his own choosing, but he still proved that Vortae were not all the same and could make different choices.

That one's genetic code was "defective" in a way that allowed it. His soul wasn't trapped quite the same way the others' souls were. But for the ones that are still genetically-bound to obey regardless of conscience--would they, theologically, be responsible for their own actions or no?

 

[DevilEyes]

As far as I remember, while most of the Weyouns were loyal to the Founders and never questioned any of the orders, the one that actually developed independent thought and morality (I think he was Weyoun 6?) still choose to believe in Odo as his God... So, Vorta are actually capable of thinking for themselves and developing conscience. Even though they still need to look up to Founders for orders. Weyoun 6 exchanged one sets of gods for another god of his own choosing, but he still proved that Vortae were not all the same and could make different choices.

That one's genetic code was "defective" in a way that allowed it. His soul wasn't trapped quite the same way the others' souls were. But for the ones that are still genetically-bound to obey regardless of conscience--would they, theologically, be responsible for their own actions or no?

It's questionable whether it was "defective", one could just as well say that it's the others who were "defective". From the POV of the Founders who engineered him, he might have seemed defective, but once you create a living being, you have to be prepared for it to take a mind of its own. That Weyoun did and showed a capacity for independent thought.

Incidentally, if a Vorta is engineered to be a perfect diplomat and politician, complete obedience to Founders is not the only thing required; Weyouns (5, 7 and 8) were over-confident and arrogant and managed to completely alienate Damar to the point of being one of the main causes of his rebellion. Not to mention that arrogance also got Weyoun 7 killed.

Also, was Keevan "defective"? While Weyouns were all devoted to the Founders (even 6 worshipped Odo), Keevan didn't really seem to care about anything more than saving his own ass.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Also, was Keevan "defective"? While Weyouns were all devoted to the Founders (even 6 worshipped Odo), Keevan didn't really seem to care about anything more than saving his own ass.

That's a good question. I never thought of that. Perhaps the fact that he was injured overshadowed his loyalty, even with that loyalty being genetically imprinted? Being near death might have motivated him to become more self-centered than a Vorta usually would be...if that's possible. It's a stretch, but the only explanation I can imagine.

 

[Anwar]

As for this "there's no such thing as black and white" stuff, I have to humbly disagree. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but there really ARE monstrous people out there who really are just bad to the core, and there are people out there who are capable of genuine kindness and compassion despite being in a bad situation. Frankly, whenever I hear how it's "immature" or "silly" to think that the world is only grey I can only think that it's just as immature or silly to refuse that there could be black and white in the world. It almost comes off as cowardly, to refuse to accept that maybe there are very bad people out there or that there's such a thing as a good person, because it can be used to ignore situations thinking "Well, the world isn't black and white so it's best not to get involved" or "there's two sides to this so we better think out everything" when it's obvious who's good and bad.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

As for this "there's no such thing as black and white" stuff, I have to humbly disagree. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but there really ARE monstrous people out there who really are just bad to the core, and there are people out there who are capable of genuine kindness and compassion despite being in a bad situation. Frankly, whenever I hear how it's "immature" or "silly" to think that the world is only grey I can only think that it's just as immature or silly to refuse that there could be black and white in the world. It almost comes off as cowardly, to refuse to accept that maybe there are very bad people out there or that there's such a thing as a good person, because it can be used to ignore situations thinking "Well, the world isn't black and white so it's best not to get involved" or "there's two sides to this so we better think out everything" when it's obvious who's good and bad.

VERY well-said: I am in complete agreement!

 

[Thestral]

It's presented in a way so as the audience is supposed to be beholden to the Sisko's opinion about Dukat being pure evil and accept the nonsense BS that they tried to retcon into Dukat's character (ie: he really wanted to massacre all the Bajorans etc.). Definitely some major revisionist history going on there that contradicts earlier episodes which show Dukat helping to improve the quality of life of Bajorans and also going out of his way to not massacre them (ie: Civil Defense).

They didn't present Sisko's anti-Dukat spiel on-screen in a way that says Dukat used to be good and then became evil. Rather they added that nonsense BS retcon to try to force Behr's opinion that he was always evil down the audience's throat.

What, and you've never disagreed with the author before, never thought that who the author said was the bad guy was actually the good guy?

Asides which, there is no revisionist history. Dukat was "helping to improve the quality of life of Bajorans"? Wow, I didn't realize enslaving people, strip-mining their land, and forcing them to work in your mines helped improve quality of life. I guess you thought the British Raj was improving the quality of life for the Indians also, eh? And going out of his way to not massacre them... wow, so he was disturbingly paternalistic and didn't just kill them all. That makes him soooo sympathetic, like Jefferson Davis, am I right? Dukat was a monster, but a monster who wore a mask and might have been redeemable

As for Dukat going insane because Ziyal died, that too is very ridiculous. He was fine before he met Ziyal, and he would likewise continue to be fine after she died. And if he was going to blame anyone for killing Ziyal, it should have been Damar who murdered her rather than Sisko who had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

What? Why would he possibly be fine after his daughter was shot in front of him and died in his arms immediately after confessing to betraying him? Remember, this is a man who, for all his many faults, cares a very great deal for his family (as Cardassians do), a man who accepted an incredible social stigma by admitting to having a half-Bajoran daughter. Ziyal may be the one person we saw on DS9 that Dukat truly loved - and if not her, then no one.

And you're assuming that he's being rational in blaming Sisko. Of course he's not rational, his mind is broken from shock and grief. Damar may have been the one who shot Ziyal, but it was Sisko (Dukat's stand-in for the Federation) who turned her against him.

There is no reason why Dukat had to be an anti-Sisko. The only way that could have been done well is if they made the Pah-Wraiths into sympathetic entities with a perfectly valid point of view that are just as good, if not better, than the wormhole aliens, which indeed could have made for one of the best out of any Trek storylines rather than one of the very worst, which is what they actually did with that was, by going for good vs. evil caricature instead of the complexity like Dukat has for 6 years prior to Waltz.

There's no reason why Dukat had to be anything, or why anything in DS9 had to happen. The storytellers told a story you don't like, but that doesn't make them wrong. This POV is no more valid then the militant Janeway fans who keep harping on what's been doen to her in TrekLit. Just because you don't appreciate or care for the transition of the Dukat/Sisko story doesn't make it invalid and it is well-defined as going in a more mythic, symbolic direction. Heck, in making his Deal With the Devil and setting himself up forever as Sisko's arch-nemesis, Dukat kills Sisko's best friend and mentor! Why would you need to make the Pah-Wraiths sympathetic, let alone just as good/better than the Prophets? More complex, perhaps, and I have my own quibbles with a lot of the details.

Again, the complex (evil, but tempered with some good qualities), fascinating Gul Skrain Dukat died in a corridor on Terok Nor. His mind was broken after his daughter's betrayal and murder - Damar killed him the moment he shot Ziyal in the chest. It's a tragic story, and what came after was more mythical, larger-than-life, when Dukat sold his soul to the Devil in a madness-fueled quest for revenge.

As for this "there's no such thing as black and white" stuff, I have to humbly disagree. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but there really ARE monstrous people out there who really are just bad to the core, and there are people out there who are capable of genuine kindness and compassion despite being in a bad situation. Frankly, whenever I hear how it's "immature" or "silly" to think that the world is only grey I can only think that it's just as immature or silly to refuse that there could be black and white in the world. It almost comes off as cowardly, to refuse to accept that maybe there are very bad people out there or that there's such a thing as a good person, because it can be used to ignore situations thinking "Well, the world isn't black and white so it's best not to get involved" or "there's two sides to this so we better think out everything" when it's obvious who's good and bad.

VERY well-said: I am in complete agreement!

I agree myself, but I am very very very uncomfortable with that outside of fictional or mythical storytelling. Also, I agree Nerys Ghemor, Alaimo did a brilliant cult leader.

 

[DevilEyes]

Uncyclopedia has a good article on Dukat: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gul_Dukat

 

[Thor Damar]

Uncyclopedia has a good article on Dukat: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gul_Dukat

.
"Gul Dukat, the nicest man in the Universe".

Classic.

 

[Thestral]

Uncyclopedia has a good article on Dukat: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gul_Dukat

That's fantastic!!!

 

[Jbarney]

As for this "there's no such thing as black and white" stuff, I have to humbly disagree. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but there really ARE monstrous people out there who really are just bad to the core, and there are people out there who are capable of genuine kindness and compassion despite being in a bad situation. Frankly, whenever I hear how it's "immature" or "silly" to think that the world is only grey I can only think that it's just as immature or silly to refuse that there could be black and white in the world. It almost comes off as cowardly, to refuse to accept that maybe there are very bad people out there or that there's such a thing as a good person, because it can be used to ignore situations thinking "Well, the world isn't black and white so it's best not to get involved" or "there's two sides to this so we better think out everything" when it's obvious who's good and bad.

I understand what you are saying here, but Dukat's own actions in the episode kinda go against his being an example of pure evil. First, in the scenes where he is basically begging Sisko to understand his actions while in command of Terok Nor, he goes out of his way to explain that he tried to do nice things to and for the Bajorans. Better medical care in the camps, healthier rations, etc. Then he specifically mentions that camp deaths dropped over 20 percent during his first year as prefect. Doesn't sound overly evil to me.

There is one point which kinda fits with your acceptance of Dukat as evil and that is his racism. In the episode he is portrayed as an ignorant jerk who couldn't accept that the Bajorans had every right to rebel against "superior" Cardassians. I see it more as cultural ignorance then evil....

And then the ending. If Dukat were pure evil he would not have let Ben Sisko live. He would not have wanted to hear a man whom he respects and sees as an equal say he understood why he made some of the decisions he did while commanding Terok Nor. He would not have sent the Defiant a message telling them where Sisko was, either. It just doesn't work.

If the writers were using the episode as the gradual progression of Dukat's character to evil, and relying on the Bajoran religion....that is fine, but Dukat was far from pure evil in the episode.

 

[Anwar]

Oh, I wasn't write all that just for Dukat (I like him, but not THAT much). I wrote it as a genuine worldview I have. There IS such a thing as black and white morality in the world.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Uncyclopedia has a good article on Dukat: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gul_Dukat

.
"Gul Dukat, the nicest man in the Universe".

Classic.

I about fell over laughing when I read that!

I LOVE how as you keep going, the editing becomes more and more evident...

And Anwar--I don't care how unpopular that view is. I will back you up ALL THE WAY on that.

 

[2 of 10]

I am just happy that they gave Dukat his Cardissian skin back, it did not seem right to have him posing as a Bajorian, I was getting real tired of him and the Kai planning and plotting against Benjamine. This story arc went on a bit to long for me, and I do wish that Damar have survived the war.

 

[Bad Atom]

I'm assuming that Marc Alaimo wrote that article and Ira Behr will be editing it shortly...

 

[DevilEyes]

Remember that Cardassian courting is supposed to consist of bickering, insults and hostility? You can't blame Dukat for thinking that Kira was in love with him!

 

[Myasishchev]

I'm not saying it didn't make sense for him to go insane, I just personally believe it made him a much less fun character to watch. Actually what annoys me more about his scenes with Winn is how contrived they seem in forcing Winn to remain a villain against all logic. It keeps becoming more and more obvious how stupid it is of her to continue consorting with Dukat and yet she continues to, even when she's actually told who he really is!

But Dukat's fanaticism over the Pah Wraiths is annoying too. I liked him more when he would brag about himself and his pride in himself and his race rather just blabbering about how great some (most of the time) unseen group of bad guys are.

He went from being an intriguingly crafty, arrogant, unpredictable dictator with a deliciously twisted morality about himself and his actions to nothing more than a cipher for some evil spirits that were never as interesting as he used to be.

There was a lot to him before, he wasn't just a mean person. His feelings for his daughter and Kira made him someone with conflicts with himself, so that watching him, you never knew what he would think or do next.

Once he went all religious zealot, all he ever did was praise his new evil leaders. He was basically reduced to those spirits' bitch. Part of the problem is also that the whole concept of Pah Wraiths strikes me as silly, although I did think the episode where Miss O'Brien got possessed by one was rivetingly disturbing and infuriating.

My feelings exactly.

Maybe the original ending to Waltz was Dukat getting killed. As much as I enjoyed Alaimo, it'd have made the remainder of the show 100% better.

 

[indranee]

yep. in the original ending, Dukat died at the end of Waltz.

 

[Anwar]

Really? How? Did Sisko kill him?