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Spoilers Walking Dead Season 8 discussion and spoilers.

Is it wrong that I sometimes notice weird things. Like when Michonne and Rick are leaving their house for the last time I spotted a few fresh tomato's on the table and part of me wanted them to grab them and take them , when they leave. I mean if food is in short supply I wold think people would never abandon food. Every little bit has to help.

Chalk that up to just being too consumed by grief to not check every box, as the expression goes. Michonne desperately wanting to save the structure Carl used as a watch position (only to stand in sandness, almost allowing walkers to reach her) was well played by Danai Gurira.

Me I also enjoyed the episode. The garbage people dying in a very gross kind of way and Jadis loosing the fake speech stuff.

Although Rick left Jadis behind, I expect her to blame Rick for her troubles and plot against him, or Michonne (considering how Jadis plotted to kill her during the double-cross at Alexandria).


I liked the little touch of RIck not leaving the gun on his sons grave. KInd of like how he didn't want a weapon to soil his resting place, especially since Karl has been wanting people to make peace with each other.

Jason

It will take more than Carl's dying request to stop Rick from his single-minded quest for revenge/death. Who will he listen to?
 
GOOD RIDDANCE! So glad the Trash People are finally gone. Ugh.

The character title cards were completely 100% unnecessary. I mean, what...?

i'm so glad Rick finally listened to me when I was shouting at the screen "DON'T LEAVE THAT SILENCED PISTOL BEHIND, IDIOT! THAT THING'S VALUABLE!" :lol:
 
The episode is not humanizing Negan, as his interest in Carl was not for some greater good, but for his own selfish plotting--essentially trying to turn him into Negan The Second. His remorse over Carl's death centers on that self-serving interest, as he still tries to psychologically stab Rick in the same conversation.
There have been many moments now in the Negan arc when he has been alone with someone (scenes with Carl, Sasha and Gabriel come to mind, but there are more) where he seemed quite rational, and almost able to justify the Saviors brutality as a necessary evil in service of a greater good. Last night's conversation with Rick even leans this way, "if only you people had just given in to me and knew your place, everything would be perfect."

Despite Carl's admirable vision of a peaceful future where Negan is picking strawberries in Alexandria, how could someone like Maggie ever forgive him, nevermind not stick a knife in his skull. Forgiveness is great, but justice has to prevail at some point.
 
There have been many moments now in the Negan arc when he has been alone with someone (scenes with Carl, Sasha and Gabriel come to mind, but there are more) where he seemed quite rational, and almost able to justify the Saviors brutality as a necessary evil in service of a greater good. Last night's conversation with Rick even leans this way, "if only you people had just given in to me and knew your place, everything would be perfect."

Despite Carl's admirable vision of a peaceful future where Negan is picking strawberries in Alexandria, how could someone like Maggie ever forgive him, nevermind not stick a knife in his skull. Forgiveness is great, but justice has to prevail at some point.

Well Karl has and everyone has killed people who you can make a argument was innocent or didn't deserve to die so it makes sense that he might try and see a world were everyone accepts they have crossed certain lines and have decided to move on with a fresh start. Also in this world justice is almost impossible so all you have is revenge. It's hard to build a world on revenge were people hold onto old grudges and never let go. I have heard of real life examples were families have forgiven people who have killed a loved one before because they feel they have become a better person or can be a better person. Didn't the old pope do this once and forgive someone who tried to shoot him?

Jason
 
I can't understand Negan, I guess he doesn't really want to brutally kill people, but feels he has to. But Simon is actually right, need to take them all out. Now that the communities have liberation on their minds, Negan should know there was no putting the genie in the bottle after that. Even if Negan killed Rick, someone else will just carry on. Plus The Saviors have suffered some major losses, if I were Negan I would go somewhere else and start over.

With Carl gone, I can't help but think this will be a hindrance from a story telling perspective, only thing I can figure is the series will take a huge divergence from the comic books, which would be a good thing in some ways. But with how boring this season has been I don't have much hope.
 
Actually, the keeping people alive part of Negan actually makes sense, and why it would help any society, especially his.

heis absolutely right that people ARE needed. You NEED farmers, and other to keep up society. And with so many people killed (especially those of technical ability), you can't waste them. I think the soctor he killed was "necessary" to quell any dissent that was starting to form, and especially anyone thinking of being a traitor -- that even the most valuable could still die.

i wish we know the back story of Simon (and the lady, who now appears to be the only other main Lieutenant of Negan's), but wondering if Negan had first developed the technique with him..and that seems to have kept Simon (and everyone else) in line.

his way of taking out just one person has usually worked in keeping people in line.

It looked like that would have worked with the Heapsters had Simon stopped.

I wonder if Jadis will pull a Morgan/Carol and come out of nowhere just in time....maybe even get Oceanside in the fight.

And did the Heapsters REALLY give up ALL of their guns?
 
I've not watched the last two episodes (though they're still on the DVR). I'm doing a trial run on quitting the show and only checking up here and the aintitcool talkbacks to see if anything substantial happens on the show to warrant me going back and watching. So far, that's not happening. Which is a shame. You have to wonder what kind of show this would have turned out to be if Darabont were still in charge, and not the shit show it is now.
 
There have been many moments now in the Negan arc when he has been alone with someone (scenes with Carl, Sasha and Gabriel come to mind, but there are more) where he seemed quite rational, and almost able to justify the Saviors brutality as a necessary evil in service of a greater good. Last night's conversation with Rick even leans this way, "if only you people had just given in to me and knew your place, everything would be perfect."

That's just illustrating how irrational/evil he is. He has no right to put anyone in a "place" or mete out punishment in order to maintain his so-called order--the very reason his conversations with Carl, Father Gabriel and Sasha never reached a point of agreement. Each knew Negan's way will lead to someone--anyone bringing death to the Savior, but he still lives in a fantasy world where his group will just consume one town or camp after another, with the expectation that fear will keep everyone on their knees. Apparently, he's not a student of history where forced labor / abusive social relations are concerned.

Despite Carl's admirable vision of a peaceful future where Negan is picking strawberries in Alexandria, how could someone like Maggie ever forgive him, nevermind not stick a knife in his skull. Forgiveness is great, but justice has to prevail at some point.

As noted earlier, Carl believes in redemption and forgiveness as the ultimate goal of mankind and he's right. Any other way has never worked, as the idea of retribution--personal satisfaction has been sold as the right belief system (especially in U.S. society). Maggie suffers from said belief system, and (at this point) has clearly failed to learn anything from her father (who tried to offer peaceful co-existence with the Governor, despite the latter saying he did not care about threatening Hershel's family). While the instant reply might be, "...and where did that get Hershel", he was living for what was right, instead of being some predatory, immoral beast roaming the earth with no chance of a peaceful life...which they are not truly interested in achieving.
 
Here in the material world, retribution is often a practical necessity because the alternative may be grimmer still.

Case in point: Ted Bundy. They locked him up and then he escaped and killed again. After he was executed, the possibility of him ending any more lives was completely eliminated.

I will genuinely forgive a murdering motherfucker, but only after he's dead.
 
Here in the material world, retribution is often a practical necessity because the alternative may be grimmer still.

But, that's a "kill or be killed" mentality when applied to TWD, and what has it accomplished other than the protagonists living long enough to become much like that which they were fighting? Take Maggie: if she kills Negan, nothing changes for her life except her fulfilling her need for revenge, which only changes her. Glenn remains dead, and life is not reset back to "happier" times. This is not arguing against legitimate self-defense, but one against seeing the world through the idea of revenge and punishment. The way Rick, Tara, Daryl and Maggie arew acting, it renders Carl's last wishes irrelevant, as the so-called heroes are just a less aggressive version of Negan (less in that they are not the party initially seeking to attack others, but in the end, they use much of the same approach to outsiders).
 
I think, in this case, Negan's death is guaranteed to change future events. The war will effectively be over, as the rest of his lieutenants have proven incapable of keeping control while he's gone. The Saviors would collapse; the remaining "leaders" flee or are executed and the remaining survivors of all factions integrate into one cohesive group. In the end, mass casualties from the Saviors' conquests will cease and they can finally start rebuilding a real civilization again without fear of autocratic tyranny. At least in that region, anyway.

We still need to find out who the helicopter belongs to, and I think we got a hint this last episode when Simon was asking about the "helipad out back" and what that place really was before the downfall. That dialogue definitely had a specific purpose. There's more to the dump than we've seen.
 
If the prime motivating factor is vengeance, it's wrong-headed. If the prime intention is meting out justice from the standpoint of righteousness, then it's different.

Negan has demonstrated a level of barbarism that has no suggestion of improvement with age or the passage of time. He could easily become a lot worse if given the opportunity. We don't even know if the negatives of his personality might be augmented by the biological factor of mental disease. In any case, he needs to be eliminated in order to put an end to his tyranny. And steps need to be taken to make sure that another of his ilk is not able to step right in and take up the reins.
 
6.82 million for this last episode. That is the lowest since season 2. For reference season 7 premiered with 17.03. Looks like on top of killing Glenn, Negan also killed the series.
 
If the prime motivating factor is vengeance, it's wrong-headed. If the prime intention is meting out justice from the standpoint of righteousness, then it's different.

Negan has demonstrated a level of barbarism that has no suggestion of improvement with age or the passage of time. He could easily become a lot worse if given the opportunity. We don't even know if the negatives of his personality might be augmented by the biological factor of mental disease. In any case, he needs to be eliminated in order to put an end to his tyranny. And steps need to be taken to make sure that another of his ilk is not able to step right in and take up the reins.

Taking steps means what? Negan/Governor-like control and threats to keep people in line? There is no preventative measure to keep any of the surviving Saviors (or any as yet to be revealed outsider) from being true believers and picking up where Negan left off. As we see in current episodes, Simon is more than ready to take over if the right time presented itself to him (like setting Negan up, or simply not backing him up during the next face off with the heroes). Their best hope would be to preserve to retain their humanity by moving on some other location, otherwise, the heroes will start making more of the kind of cutthroat, self-serving decisions Rick embraced in S3 when he asked Merle to hand Michonne over to the Governor.

6.82 million for this last episode. That is the lowest since season 2. For reference season 7 premiered with 17.03. Looks like on top of killing Glenn, Negan also killed the series.

Clarification: the Academy Awards aired this past Sunday, and historically, TWD (and other series) always lose viewers on that evening, despite the Oscars' annual declining viewership.
 
Clarification: the Academy Awards aired this past Sunday, and historically, TWD (and other series) always lose viewers on that evening, despite the Oscars' annual declining viewership.

And the premiere was up against the closing ceremony of the Olympics. Tough way to restart the season.
 
Taking steps means what? Negan/Governor-like control and threats to keep people in line? There is no preventative measure to keep any of the surviving Saviors (or any as yet to be revealed outsider) from being true believers and picking up where Negan left off. As we see in current episodes, Simon is more than ready to take over if the right time presented itself to him (like setting Negan up, or simply not backing him up during the next face off with the heroes). Their best hope would be to preserve to retain their humanity by moving on some other location, otherwise, the heroes will start making more of the kind of cutthroat, self-serving decisions Rick embraced in S3 when he asked Merle to hand Michonne over to the Governor.

It's seldom easy. If you just pull out and move on, that's all well and fine in theory. If it turns out to be viable, great. But, the question inevitably arises about what's really going to happen back there. Is the cancer going to rise up and spread? At some point down the line are there going to be threats and incursions into your new place because of something that was not adequately addressed in the past?

It's a tough quandary, but it goes on all the time. Take the U.S. itself. On the one hand, it's said that we can't be the world's policeman and great white father dictator, etc, etc. Fair to say. But, on the other hand, when you see more and more injustice, more and more crimes against humanity, etc....even though it's happening within the borders of nations just as 'sovereign' as this one, at some point someone has to do something. If nothing is done then it so often happens that the aggression and negative actions start getting aimed at neighboring countries and widening out from there.

You can't allow a bully to keep on bullying. He will take the freedom to do so and run with it. Amp it up.

It's a sad but true fact that there is a percentage of the human population with the type of personality that responds to one thing and one thing only: a threat that can be backed up by physical force. In other words, fear of consequences that involve bodily harm and loss of life.

Personally, I am a peaceful person by nature. But I have encountered situations in my life at times when one of those personality types makes the perceptual mistake of identifying peace and kindness as weakness. From that misperception they then gleefully attach themselves to you like a leech and will NOT leave you alone. No amount of words and diplomacy make a difference whatsoever. It's only after they suddenly find themselves battered and bloody in a heap on the ground that they are sufficiently motivated to cease and desist. With some, even that is not enough of a lesson to be drummed in. I remain thankful that I have never yet encountered a situation that I have had to take any farther.

Violence and death should never be relished. It should always be a matter of regret that matters came to such a point that such action had to be taken against another.

But sometimes a distasteful solution is the only solution if nothing else will work.

Sometimes a benevolent occupying force is necessary.
 
You can't allow a bully to keep on bullying. He will take the freedom to do so and run with it. Amp it up.

It's a sad but true fact that there is a percentage of the human population with the type of personality that responds to one thing and one thing only: a threat that can be backed up by physical force. In other words, fear of consequences that involve bodily harm and loss of life.

The problem with that is that fear of consequences is not a reliable deterrent, but encouragement to continue. In TWD's world, The Governor never backed down from any attack (or defense) from the heroes, and would make a third, deadly return to the prison. The Saviors have suffered numerous losses at the hands of the alliance, but Negan, Simon, et al., are determined to crush the opposition. Negan or Simon do not fear consequences. In fact, they expect it as it plays into their strengths. To characters like The Governor and Negan, everyone else are mere squatters in their world--the odd men out, rather than a part of it that needs to be treated fairly, or just left alone.
 
The problem with that is that fear of consequences is not a reliable deterrent, but encouragement to continue. In TWD's world, The Governor never backed down from any attack (or defense) from the heroes, and would make a third, deadly return to the prison. The Saviors have suffered numerous losses at the hands of the alliance, but Negan, Simon, et al., are determined to crush the opposition. Negan or Simon do not fear consequences. In fact, they expect it as it plays into their strengths. To characters like The Governor and Negan, everyone else are mere squatters in their world--the odd men out, rather than a part of it that needs to be treated fairly, or just left alone.

Which is exactly why that type needs to be eliminated. Not from a standpoint of vengeance but simply from a need to get it done.

It isn't just their world and if they insist on conducting matters that way they need to be taken out.
 
Rick s resistance seems to be a new phenomenon for the Saviors.
For most others it seemed to work...was Oceanside and early failure?

Curious though...how many serfdoms do they have and how many outposts?
 
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