Wah, Wah, Wah

[KingOfPop]

I have been a fan of Star Trek for 25 years, since I was roughly 5 years old. I have loved almost all of its incarantions. I joined this board around the time of the new film in order to discuss it with fellow Star Trek fans.

After awhile, I got tired of constantly being told I was wrong for liking the new film. I stopped posting.

Tonight, I rented the DVD and watched the movie again. I came back to this site to see what was going on. I was amazed to see people vehemently attacking the movie. I don't mind honest critique, but what I see here is simply people being immature and shallow.

They attack the film on two major points: it is apparently "shallow" and "not real Trek." Thats about all the give. Sure, they go on to complain about "screen flares" and it being a "summer action flick," and "not cannon." Thats about it. WOW, what a high standard you all gave JJ: He had to make something that was completely cannon and not a summer action movie. Should he have reshot Insurrection? (wait, that wasn't cannon either: remember Picard's bald head?)

Here is my argument: The new Star Trek is a very good movie. It contains all of the classic literature themes: man vs. man, man vs. himself, man vs. time, good vs. evil, fear vs. reason, etc, etc. (doesn't that make it somewhat deep?)

How about the best special effects Trek has seen? Great Music? Check on both of those.

So, its not cannon. I hate to break it to you, Star Trek has never been all that great at cannon. Here AT LEAST JJ took the time to make the new film tie in with cannon.

The film is said to not be "deep" enough to be "real Trek." Again, I ask, when has Star Trek been the deep sci-fi bastion that would merit disqualifing this film from being acceptable? V'Ger? come on. I love TMP, but if you think that is deep sci-fi, you are a fool.

In the end, you all need to realize that its OK, if the masses like Star Trek. We can't be bitter because Joe Smoe likes the movie, yet he never watched all of the TOS and TNG. Relax, enjoy the movie and be glad Star Trek is still around. Another stinker like Nemesis (which on a "deepness" level actually makes the new Trek seem like the bottom of the sea) and the franchise may have died.

Go ahead and make fun of me for some stupid reason not related to my post. I expect that. It would just be nice to ahve some one either agree or disagree with my POINTS.

Smile, life is too short to hate Trek.

 

[sbk1234]

I agree that it can be very jarring to have people disagree with you quite vehemently. Try not to take it too seriously. There are quite a few people who like the film, too. You'll find that kind of disagreement on about any Trek-related topic:
TOS vs. TNG, TOS vs. films, TNG vs VOY, DS9 vs. ENT, and so on, and so on.
I think a line must be drawn with any personal attacks. However, I must confess, I find those to be pretty seldom in most cases.

And, yes, I do agree with your points about the movie.

 

[DimesDan]

I rather liked Star Trek, but then again I liked Nemesis and I don't really pay that much attention to the ravings of a few on the net, if I like something and some else doesn't, then so be it, we're all unique after all and it would be bloody boring if everyone agreed on everything.

 

[Daneel]

There's plenty of people on the board that actually do like the new Star Trek movie. I happen to be one of them. In fact, there's more of us than you seem to think there are.

I'd suggest checking out the Trek XI forum -- a lot of the posters who hang out there enjoyed the film. Beyond that, you know what they say: different strokes for different folks. Not everyone's going to like the same things that you do. If they did, this board would be a pretty dull place.

 

[SheliakBob]

"Go ahead and make fun of me for some stupid reason not related to my post. I expect that. It would just be nice to ahve some one either agree or disagree with my POINTS."

A "cannon" is a very big gun. A "canon" is an accepted body of works, considered definitive and sometimes sacred.
(The usage is, and always has been, a slightly humorous overstatement--aimed at the sometimes excessive zeal of hard core fans.)

Mission accomplished.
Carry on.

 

[TheGodBen]

Here is my argument: The new Star Trek is a very good movie.

That's not an argument, that's an opinion. I happen not to share it.

You think the snide comments about Trek XI are bad? You have no idea what it was like to express the opinion that Trek XI was a bad movie in that forum when the film was first released, many people (not all) tried to label us as loons for not agreeing with the consensus. I was personally insulted on more than one occasion, including a post by one very irritating poster who accused me of being a virgin and that I would remain so for 40 years, all because I was explaining the reasoning behind why I didn't like the movie. In the end I couldn't face the hostility of the movie forum anymore and I stopped posting in there.

So I for one am glad that things have died down to the point where people can criticise Trek XI without being put down for holding a minority opinion. I don't always agree with the criticisms of the movie, and in some cases I feel the critics cross the line of insulting the fans, but much of that is based out of how we were treated by some of the fans of the movie upon its release. I know I certainly went from a moderate dislike of the movie to an intense dislike of it based purely on the actions of some (by no means all) of its fans, and it is only after months of not discussing it that I reverted back to my moderate position.

You like the movie? Fine, I have no problem with that, I like plenty of things that others do not. But please, don't label all the movie's detractors as though we are petulant children.

 

[Anji]

KingOfPop, since you've been greeted with nothing but criticism since you've joined this board, how about being greeted with some kindness...welcome aboard! It's always nice to have a new member.

 

[Gepard]

Re TGB: Yeah, it's treading on eggshells around quite a few of the...louder..folks who liked the film. I think there's actually less trashing of Trek XI nowadays, though, as detractors have left the Trek XI forum. I know I don't visit there nearly as much as I used to, and I almost never post.

 

[Broccoli]

KingOfPop...I'm surprised at your experience...the reaction to the new Trek movie here has been overwhelmingly positive. Those who don't like it, save for a small handful, tend to stay away from the Trek XI forum.

 

[Voyagerian]

KingOfPop, you can add myself, who grew up on TOS, and watched everything thereafter-in the pro-film camp. Saw it twice, bought the dvd.

 

[ThePlumsofWrath]

[/QUOTE] including a post by one very irritating poster who accused me of being a virgin and that I would remain so for 40 years [/QUOTE]

So, what happened?

 

[TheGodBen]

including a post by one very irritating poster who accused me of being a virgin and that I would remain so for 40 years

So, what happened?

We mended our differences, he took me out to dinner and made a lady out of me.



In reality: I didn't rise to the bait because it was a personal attack and he didn't even try to discuss my criticisms of the movie, and I believe he got a warning. There was a heavy moderator presence at the time of the film's release because some people on both sides had trouble with making blanket attacks on the people who didn't agree with them. But I noticed it more from the fans of the movie because I was one of the critics.

 

[Jeyl]

In the end, you all need to realize that its OK, if the masses like Star Trek. We can't be bitter because Joe Smoe likes the movie, yet he never watched all of the TOS and TNG. Relax, enjoy the movie and be glad Star Trek is still around.

My arguments against the new Trek movie stems more towards my opinion that it just wasn't a good movie period, not because the Transformers crowd just 'liked' it. The characters are unlikable a**holes, the dialogue is poorly written in a lot of places and the Kirk/Spock relationship was the most unconvincing element in the entire movie. You can't go from racial name calling, berating arguments and outright shouting to this person in front of everyone on the bridge to 'We're best friends!' without any kind of resolve. There's not even one apology from Kirk in the whole movie.

Also, the film needs women that actually do something.

 

[thumbtack]

You mean hemlines and haircuts are not valid criticisms of this movie? Some of the detractors do come right out and admit the real reason they hate this movie, but most are simply too embarrased. So, you end up with 10,000 word essays on Sulu's misuse of his sword and other hilarity.

I've learned that "lensflare" is really just a code word for "reboot". If you paste their incoherent rants into Word, and then do a find and replace, substituting the word reboot for lensflare, suddenly their posts make sense. Try it. It works.

 

[Voyagerian]

You do make an interesting and arguable point there, Jeyl....but can I toss in here for consideration, that both Young Jim and Young Spock had direct interactions with Prime Spock,who went out of his way(even WITHOUT seeming to behave as if he were, to Jim) to smooth the path of unity for these two men, whom he knew had so much potential to become together many things they would not be apart. Brothers. In time, they will, even improving in the next film.PS took full advantage of his intimate knowledge of, at least the basic personas of both, and advised them as to the potential, which Kirk certainly, yes, didn't believe when they met in the ice cave!...but it happened, not organically, but there was a start. And trials do have a way of bonding people.

 

[TheGodBen]

You mean hemlines and haircuts are not valid criticisms of this movie? Some of the detractors do come right out and admit the real reason they hate this movie, but most are simply too embarrased. So, you end up with 10,000 word essays on Sulu's misuse of his sword and other hilarity.

I've learned that "lensflare" is really just a code word for "reboot". If you paste their incoherent rants into Word, and then do a find and replace, substituting the word reboot for lensflare, suddenly their posts make sense. Try it. It works.

See, this is the sort of post I'm talking about when I say that some of the fans of the movie were so insulting that they made me loath it. The sort of post which claims that a person cannot have any valid criticism of the movie, it is all because those who do not like it are loons. Most Trek XI fans don't act this way, but there was enough to drive me away from that forum, and it is one of the reasons why I don't want to see the Trek XI forum merged with this one.

My favourite Trek film is TUC, and I am well aware of the flaws of that movie. If somebody says they don't like TUC based on those flaws, or because they don't like the tone, I have no problem with that, they're perfectly entitled to their opinions. And I have never seen a TUC fan so rudely disregard the opinions of the movie's detractors as though they were some sort of lower life form, so I don't know why some people think that it is acceptable behaviour towards those of us who don't like Trek XI.

EDIT: Okay, I'm going to test your claim with my review of Trek XI...

And I'd like to talk about reboot for a moment, because I was uncharacteristically pissed off by it. I normally don't mind a little bit of reboot, I used to find it funny that people got upset over it, but this movie takes the cake. The heart of this film is a scene where Kirk confronts Spock on the bridge to try and get an emotional outburst from him, and three times during that scene the entire screen goes white for about a second because the reboot takes up the entire screen! For fuck sake, cut it out! Why would you intentionally do that to your movie?

No, I don't think it does work. Sorry.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Don't generalize the reasons why people have problems with the movie or assume that everyone who would criticize it hates it completely. I don't care that it was more action-heavy and less talky than some of the others. I enjoyed most of it. I just thought Nero was a piss poor villain and the way he and the original Spock got involved in the plot was so stupid that it dragged down the quality of the whole movie (though it was nice to see Nimoy again).

I don't object to the movie for how it's different from other Star Trek movies. I just think some very bad decisions were made in the writing, and I would say the same thing if it was any other movie. One of my biggest pet peeves in a movie is bad exposition. That's why Nero and Spock explaining to the other characters what happened between them was what sank it for me.

But I thought just about everything else was lovely. The opening sequence hit me harder emotionally more than any opening of the previous Star Trek movies, and I thought the casting across the board was impeccable, especially Chris Pine and Karl Urban. I think it would have been perfect without the time travel aspect, or with it done differently. The Prime Spock and Nero stuff was just the big black eye on what I thought was an otherwise pretty damn flawless movie.

 

[ThePlumsofWrath]

including a post by one very irritating poster who accused me of being a virgin and that I would remain so for 40 years

So, what happened?

We mended our differences, he took me out to dinner and made a lady out of me.



In reality: I didn't rise to the bait because it was a personal attack and he didn't even try to discuss my criticisms of the movie, and I believe he got a warning. There was a heavy moderator presence at the time of the film's release because some people on both sides had trouble with making blanket attacks on the people who didn't agree with them. But I noticed it more from the fans of the movie because I was one of the critics.

 

[Lord Garth]

I liked the movie but I don't think it's perfect, at least not so perfect that it should be elevated to holiness above all other cinema. It's good but it's not that good, it's not Gone With the Wind or The Wizard of Oz or The Godfather. It's not even The Dark Knight. It's just a good Star Trek movie. Period.

There's a lot to praise but that doesn't mean there can't be criticism either and that all criticism should be silenced. Or, to quote Data, in "The Ensigns of Command": "Do you consider your position to be so weak that it cannot withstand debate?" Or, to quote Scotty in "The Trouble With Tribbles": "We're big enough to take a few insults."

My main problem with ST XI fans, even though I consider myself to be one, is that they're far, far too defensive and their responses can be grossly disprortionate to what's actually said. And at this point I'll speak in general terms instead of directly at any one person: So someone doesn't like the movie? So what? There's no reason to call them basement dwelling virgins when they probably have jobs and live on their own, and there's no reason to call them 50 when they're probably more like 35. Who knows how old they are or what their living situation is and, in today's economy, does it even matter anymore? You don't know who these people are so stop acting like you do and stop making blanket insults. Disagreeing with someone's opinion about a movie is no reason to attack them personally. That's where I think the real problem is.

There will always be people who like X or Y and those who don't. Nothing we can do about it. What we can do something about is how we handle ourselves when discussing X and Y. So what if "This is the Internet"? Collectively, we can make the Internet whatever we want it to be. The Internet is a reflection of us, not the other way around. It's not "this is how it is because it's the Internet and we can't change it!", it's "this is how it is because we made it this way but we can choose to change."

And, really, what's the point of dismissing something you disagree with, whether it's thought out or not as nothing more than "Wah, Wah, Wah" or something similar? People, for better or worse, will post whatever they like. They don't have to type essays or go into great lengths about what they think, as insightful as it might be if they did.

Anyway, if you (anyone in general) think there are only bashers on the board, and you're actively looking out for them, that's what you'll see, and you won't see anything else because you're too focused on just the bashers. Same for the reverse. That's why you'll see people who hate the movie thinking this board is filled only with people who love it. People see what they want to see, and when they look for it, they'll find it, and that's all they'll need to confirm what they think... whether it's the whole picture or not.

 

[Shatmandu]

Why should I care what someone else thought of the movie?

Unless they were supposed to buy me a ticket and then refused, based on them not liking it, I have no reason to give a yank whether they liked it or not.

Let 'em watch Star Wars.

Joe, clean