A Vulcan love interest for Spock?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Laura Cynthia Chambers, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Would Spock's breaking up with Uhura in Beyond in a misguided attempt to help preserve his race have been more poignant if there had been an actual specific Vulcan woman rather that no potential mate in particular?

    I don't think she would have been as understanding, for one thing. She does know how he feels about what happened to the Vulcans, but jealousy having a face and a name would have made it harder for her. She'd find it hard not to see it as an excuse to be with someone he might understand/connect with better.
     
  2. Balok's Decoy

    Balok's Decoy Commodore Commodore

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    Nah, I don't think a specific Vulcan would've been necessary. I think it worked just fine as Spock wanting to make Vulcan babies with a Vulcan, any Vulcan, and that Uhura felt angry and betrayed because she's human and doesn't fit the bill.

    On the other hand, Kelvin T'Pring??? Perhaps that was a missed opportunity.
     
  3. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, they did cover that in the IDW comics, but as has been stated before, a) hardly any movie viewers read them, and b) they could just do it anyway.

    I was thinking more along the lines of either another fellow officer, or a civilian Vulcan scientist assigned to the Enterprise. There's always the 2013 video game's T'Mar, for instance, though she was a captain, so the circumstances of her assignment would be unclear. Perhaps she's a passenger...
     
  4. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Surely Spock Prime spent the years of 2258-2263 re-populating the Vulcan race? There must be a load of little Spocklets running around on New Vulcan by the time Spock decides to break up with Uhura in Beyond.
     
  5. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

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    With Vulcans being an endangered species and all, would they actually let a half human spread his seed?
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps they would practice gene splicing...? As in, straight in the middle?

    I guess they could have considered capping the "You gave your girlfriend a tracking device?!" hilarity with "You are saying you are dating a Vulcan girl?"; "Not exactly a girl, no. I owe it to you to be open and honest about this, Uhura. On this padd is a list of names and contact information, in alphabetical order."...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I can't wait for the publication of Spock's Little Black PADD...
     
  8. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Especially since they regard Romulans, their "cousins", as being what they would be without logic. Therefore, Spock would be closer to them in temperament. Not the sort of thing they wish to cultivate. Would they take his child away from him?
     
  9. Dales

    Dales Captain Captain

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    nah, it sounds too far fetched. if she and spock did not connect well together, the relationship would have ended a long time ago.

    I think spock touched on the issue in one of the new comics of why they work together so well. something about having the same interests and view of life.

    from the films it seems they both have the same values compared to a person like jim kirk.

    I don't see spock connecting to a vulcan woman at all in this timeline. this spock is way too in touch with his human side and his human side had shown he has an emotional attachment to uhura.

    spock and a vulcan woman is the equivalent of an arranged marriage. I dont think this spock would have been able to put up with being in that situation for a long time.

    I bet after he had Vulcan kids he would have gone back to uhura.
     
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  10. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have a feeling that a clichè soap opera with a love triangle wasn't exactly what they had in mind.

    Spock has survivor guilt, it makes him question if his duty essentially is to sacrifice everything in order to use his whole life to help people who never accepted him (but ironically, now need EVEN him and will NOW consider him a 'real vulcan' if they need him). What he wants or needs is, in his mind in that moment, irrelevant.
    Being with a vulcan would just be cold procreation purposes so one woman would be like another; it's indifferent (ditto for the vulcan woman who would be with him). You can question how silly the whole concept might be, to begin with; really, the idea the vulcans are now forced to be in unwanted relationships that way when it's more logical to use clonation to save their race. A bit sexist, also, to assume that the vulcan women are all just waiting to get used as incubators when the majority of them might have careers too, even better than Spock's, and no desire to be moms soon.
    Not to even mention the little 'detail' that Spock is still part human anyway so his kids, regardless, won't be 100% vulcan which makes him not exactly 'the one' dude vulcans absolutely need for that one purpose.
    However, this whole 'Spock wanted to make vulcan babies' thing is by itself an assumption that we make just because McCoy made it, but truth is Spock might have helped the vulcans even without being a baby maker. The problem for him and Uhura was him possibly needing to leave the ship and his career in starfleet. I honestly think Uhura wouldn't have a problem if Spock was asked to be just a sperm donor. With his lifespan being longer than humans, he would always have the time to 'help' the vulcans that way.

    I think even just implying that his kids with Uhura wouldn't be valid as vulcans, and to continue their culture, just because they'd be mixed, is not a good message to deliver especially in terms of Spock's own arc as a mixed person himself who struggles to get his both sides get accepted.
    It would be coming to full circle if his kids with Uhura were actually accepted as vulcans in ways they never accepted him, because that would mean they are learning from the past and using the loss of their home planet to look forward and become better people.
    The idea that Spock would essentially need, instead, to further deny his human side and deny his kids have it is regressive and undermining most of his character development IMO.

    Also, frankly the idea a vulcan lady would be more compatible for him just because she's vulcan is, well, stupid. It's like saying that Uhura would be better with Kirk or Scotty than Spock just because they are human dudes, in spite of her essentially having nothing in common with them.
    and we seem to always gloss over the fact that Spock IS human too and as such, he has needs that might not be that of the average vulcan. It's wrong to assume he automatically wants everything to be vulcan. In a way, he's more vulcan amongs humans than he most likely is amongs vulcans.. he's an outsider to both.
    Remember he got along with his human mother better than his father.
    I think the reason why he 'clicks' with Uhura is because he found a human who is embracing her feelings, and thus helping that side of him that craves for human affection and show it the human way (and not have it considered 'wrong'), but at the same time she's logical like him and she can complement his vulcan side nicely. They can have problems just like any other couple, but in the end she accepts him the way he is and she doesn't try to make him only human. Would a vulcan do that too on reverse and thus let him express his human side?

    you guys seem to get it wrong.
    For a start, the actors and writers (especially Jung in the dvds) explained that Uhura broke up with him at the beginning because she understood his conflict and wanted him to be free, which isn't something Spock necessarily liked (hence why he told McCoy that he had intended to discuss things with her more. He wasn't sure about leaving until he heard about Spock Prime dying)

    this from an interview
    Jung: "With all of the characters, we were trying to see how much they had matured since the last we had been with them. (about Spock and Uhura’s initial breakup) we didn’t want to do it where it felt like they were tired of each other, we wanted it to be something that was born of a real, mature, thoughtful idea. By having it be that they broke up over these concerns of Spock, and Uhura making a decision to release him, despite strong feelings for each other, we thought it was a nice way of advancing their relationship that was so well established. It (also) added another element to how the other characters might perceive it, specifically Bones, and his misunderstanding in thinking that it might’ve just been this “boy meets girl, boy loses girl” story."

    You can argue that the movie didn't show it all in details (and that's more Lin's fault than Pegg&Jung's. I don't think Lin is a good story teller when it comes to some aspects related to the characters) but what we see still makes more sense with what Jung said. There is no evidence of Uhura being 'angry' at Spock (aside from McCoy stating that he could see if she was upset about Spock wanting to help the vulcans repopulate. But even that, her being upset or angry would be totally normal but it doesn't necessarily mean she's angry AT Spock and that was her modus operandi when breaking up with him), and even more there is no evidence that HE broke up with her because, if anything, the break up is only implied but even in the 'only implied' that scene seems to rather suggest - with the help of McCoy mocking Spock too - that it was UHURA who broke up with him (and he wasn't happy about her decision).

    I understand that hollywood is a clichè, especially when it comes to women and romances, so some things might become almost 'automatic' for the audience because we internalize things like sexism, but at one point one gotta make the effort to, at least, try to not project things even in a narrative that doesn't really have them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  11. Dales

    Dales Captain Captain

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    if a half vulcan gets with a full vulcan, the new born kid will be more vulcan than human and that should be fine since spock is still considered more vulcan than human even though he is half human.
     
  12. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The thread title sounds like the PG version of a popular holo-program.
     
  13. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Can someone change that to "A Vulcan love interest for Spock?" @Locutus of Bored ?
     
  14. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Yo, Dawg! I Heard You Like Avatars... In Memoriam

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    Done.
     
  15. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks. I wondered if anyone was going to notice how it sounded. I really didn't want this to turn into an off-topic VLS fest. I hadn't noticed what it sounded like until after I posted it.
     
  16. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

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    It seemed like most Vulcans would consider Spock "tainted" because of the human blood, not caring how much of it there was.

    They were going to allow his enrollment in the Vulcan Science Academy despite his "disadvantage", but allowing him to participate in the rebuilding of the race might be another thing.

    Maybe Spock prime used an alias?
     
  17. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Carl
     
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  18. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    genetics is far more complex and unpredictable than that. Truth is, his kids with a vulcan could be as human (or as vulcan) as his kids with Uhura would be, unless they find a way to eliminate the human part (which they can't do otherwise they would have done that with Spock too, probably).
    You see that unpredictability in the real world as there are many mixed people who look more like their white parent or more like their black or asian parent. There can be people who aren't biracial but still look mixed, but on the other hand there are biracial or mixed people who look like kids whose parents are the same race (e.g., Nichelle Nichols, a lot of people don't even know she's biracial/mixed but from her own words she is the one who looks the most african-american amongs her siblings)



    exactly the reason why I think that, in either case, it's a moot point.
    If the vulcans were to accept his kids with a vulcan in spite of them being part human still, then I don't think it makes much sense for them to be picky about his kids with a human: in both cases the kids will have some human in them.
    If they are so bigoted and conservative to not want to 'taint' their species with human genes and they only want 100% pure vulcans, they are going to be like that no matter the 'percentage' of human that the kids would have because even the 1% would still be 'too much' for them.

    suspension of disbelief, anyway. For me it's a silly conflict, especially for someone we presume is logical and rational like Spock (and it's a bit silly, by itself, that McCoy himself seems to not even take what we are saying into consideration)
    Aside from the reason I already stated in my other reply (the fact I think it's soap operaish to think the vulcans are forced to marry strangers and make babies now when clonation and other methods are far more logical and efficient way to save their species), I think it makes much more sense to think that Spock wanted to, say, help them rebuilt their science academy, and thus he believed that his skills would be more useful to help the colony than in starfleet where he's more 'one of the many'. It would also make sense with what Kirk said about their missions becoming 'episodic', and maybe Spock feeling like a career in starfleet wouldn't give him the sense of purpose that helping the vulcans would. Compared to Kirk, his perspective makes a tad more sense in a way because he has survivor guilt so the pull of duty realistically did something to his psyche making him, perhaps, feel useless. I think what happened on altamid, and seeing the purpose of starfleet through Jaylah too, reminded him that maybe, just maybe, he can help his people by being in starfleet too.. representing vulcans there and helping other worlds in ways he couldn't help his when it got destroyed.. and thus, in a way, protect new vulcan for future generations. What happened surely also made him realize how important Uhura and his friends are to him. She will have a smaller lifespan than him (unless either of them gets killed in a mission or dies for other reasons) so there will be a day when he will lose her and, just like Spock prime, lose all his friends. He can only use the time he has now to be with them.

    as for vulcan, if he lives as long as the other Spock did, he will have all the time when he gets older.. or maybe after the five years mission ends him and Uhura could easily spend some time on new vulcan for a while and help the vulcans (and not just 'repopulating').
     
  19. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    Clonation only would be bad for the Vulcan race, and would lead to replicative fading and other errors, as mentioned by Pulaski in 'Up The Long Ladder' Vulcans would be foolish to do that solely. Spock and Spock Prime know this, that's why Spock was willing to quit Starfleet and be a baby daddy to a Vulcan baby mommy.

    Anything (natural) to preserve the species will be done, even if it means making sacrifices of one's personal life goals for the good of the race. Vulcan men & Vulcan women would understand that, and act accordingly (or believe it to be logical.)

    Whether it be donating sperm or having a baby with a Vulcan women, Spock would do anything to help the Vulcan race survive. That's true dedication, and it's also an adult thing to do (if a society wrecking event happend, I was one of the survivors, I was also young and healthy, and they needed me to be a seed bearer, I'd do it.) That's exactly the situation in one 1960's French post nuclear holocaust movie concerning a bunch of young women that want to repopulate the planet, only they fail at it because the only man they find is too old to be of service.
     
  20. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I really don't think that waiting for couples to save their race the 'natural ways' is the most logical and effective/efficient way to save their race. They just won't have enough time like that. Clonation is still more feasible, even if less 'romantic' and even if it essentially means you are creating a bunch of vulcans who might never really have a 'traditional' family (in that scenario, probably you'd have a bunch of kids that a legal tutor takes care of)
    I always assumed, anyway, that the vulcan survivors all became sperm and egg donors. The idea that vulcans are forced to marry strangers is stupid; they don't need to be in a relationship with the other donor. That's just soap opera drama.

    also, some people don't seem to consider this but it's likely that most of the survivors are dealing with PTSD after the loss of their world and beloved ones, so forcing them to become baby makers might be too much and not good for their health, not to mention their health being by itself an obstacle for them to procreate the natural way (especially women). I bet there were a lot of cases of suicides or people going insane (the comics partly touched on this aspect). Let's not forget that Vulcans are telephats.. when their home world got destroyed they felt it, literally, and they felt the deads of their beloved ones.
    Then there is the fact that, realistically, I think most of the survivors probably are people like Spock who weren't on vulcan at the time because they have careers elsewhere, and no matter how patriotic they might be, they just won't all give everything up to marry a stranger and make babies just like that (e.g., the vulcan ladies we see in both the comics and the videogame, there is no mention of them being asked to give up their careers to become incubators for some stranger's baby. The vulcan girl from the comics only feels conflict over wanting to help her people instead of staying in starfleet, but she isn't forced to be a mom by the vulcans)
    In either case, there are many ways the survivors can help their people and not all of them are related to procreation and not all of them require them to be on vulcan.