Vulcan beggars can't be choosers..adapt or die from extinction
A Vulcan love interest for Spock?
- Thread starter Laura Cynthia Chambers
- Start date
If there are only 10,000 Syrannite Vulcans left in the galaxy is that enough genetic diversity to be so genetically exclusive? Unless they hook up with their Romulan and Rigellian relatives.
Besides lets assume Vulcans have the lowest Diaspora population in the Federation for cultural reasons, say half a percent of the population lived elsewhere when their home world was destroyed, that is still 30 million Vulcans.
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Science keeps on saying the last word on required genetic diversity (or social diversity), and may still be at it in the 23rd century. For all we know, a hundred individuals might be fine, and the wildest models on human prehistory suggest we were through such a bottleneck once. But Vulcans may be special in so many ways - including this katra business.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
^Perhaps, but that 10,000 extinction line still gets up my nose when I hear it in the movie, its dramatic but does not match the in universe reality of the Federation or Vulcanoids IMO.
They might also consider getting sperm and ova from humans as well, or any other compatible humanoid race in the Federation. In fact, I expect the Federation to be donating a lot of help with procreation and other society-constructing things to help get the Vulcans back on their feet.
Regarding what some other poster said to me in a response, I suppose that Vulcans could use cloning matrix technology (as shown here) to repopulate the species, but I have misgivings about that due to the dangers of replicative fading, genetic stagnation, and inbreeding that could lead to serious later problems like fumarase deficiency-which no society wants, period. So forming certain breeder families, as proposed by Deanna Troi in the TNG episode 'Up The Long Ladder', might still have to be done, even if that means some Vulcan individuals would have to put personal goals in life aside.
tl dr: part of the conflict pretext in beyond gets invalidated by simple reasonings related to Spock being part human:
a) IF the vulcans now consider Spock a 'real vulcan (tm)' in spite of his human part, and would therefore accept his kids with a vulcan in spite of them possibly being part human like him, they can't nitpick about his kids with a human either because those would too inherit vulcan from him.
Even if, say, Uhura doesn't want to be a mom now she can be ok about him getting asked to be a donor, which in this 'vulcans don't care about his human side anymore' scenario he should have been from the beginning (assuming he's fertile), just like the other survivors, anyway. Why is this point addressed only 3 years after the vulcan diaspora happened? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Any rational person would think that, right after the first movie, ALL the survivors would be asked to donate their sperm and eggs, anyway.
b) IF the vulcans still consider Spock 'tainted' by his human side and not a 'real vulcan (tm)' , they are going to decline his offer to help them regardless he procreates with a vulcan or human or Tilda Swinton. Not to mention that if the vulcans were so exclusive and bigoted still, he'd never find a vulcan lady willing to procreate with him.
However, and in either scenario, the idea that only male/female couples marrying and procreating will save the vulcan race is too outdated and regressive for the reality these people are supposed to live in. And so is the idea that his kids with a human wouldn't be considered real vulcans too (and thus able to continue their legacy, traditions and culture too) only because they are, basically, mixed.
Sure, some might find an interesting parallel between Spock feeling pressure to pick a mate 'in the community', and what happens in our world in some ethnic groups, and the hate and intollerance that interracial or intercultural couples still get. But is it really fitting for trek's ideal of positiveness and inclusinevess to decipt a world that is STILL like that? Especially if done in a way that doesn't even criticize that kind of bigotry, but actually justifies it.
And Spock is NOT T'Pol or Tuvok or Sarek. He's himself the result of an interracial/interspecies couple and that can't be ignored for the sake of drama. Isn't it going backwards with Spock's own struggles as a vulcan/human himself? Not only he'd be forced to erase his human side, but he'd also be forced to pretend his kids are only vulcan. Most of his character development and evolution as someone who can finally embrace both his sides would, essentially, get erased.
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Honestly, it's possible the writers truly only intended that line to be McCoy just making fun of the situation and derailing the actual point (ie Spock wanting to leave starfleet to help his people, thus the issue between him and Uhura really being only related to a long distance relationship and him not wanting to ask her to sacrifice her career for him, and her not wanting him to stay just for her if helping the vulcans was so important to him), but reducing Spock's conflict to this making vulcan babies business is so terribly lame. I get that with this genre of movie we are often asked to suspend our disblelief and we can't even nitpick too much, but if you want to add conflict to the characters you gotta try finding excuses that make sense and don't look like lame pretexts to add drama.
The fact that Spock IS half human should have been addressed in this movie. They (and some fans too) need to stop remembering he's part human only when they want to explain why he's emotional, but then a moment later they pretend he's only vulcan when that does fit their narrative better.
But, again, in my opinion Lin didn't deliver when it comes to the characters and their motivations. From Kirk's conflict, to Spock's and then the villain's motives (not to mention Uhura's side in the break up and her feelings, and Sulu's feelings about his family being in Yorktown when Krall wanted to destroy it).. everything that had any vague chance to add depth is only barely developed, or not developed at all.
I was disappointed by his interviews and the fact he doesn't even seem to really make an effort to talk about certain aspects and explain their story-telling process, adding layers that we maybe couldn't see in the movie, but after thinking about it more maybe it's not that surprising that he seems to have nothing to say about these characters and he didn't seem to be invested in their stories. It's like it's not his story, not his trek, not his characters, not his dynamics. Maybe it's just human and he did his best in the circumstances he was in.
If we get another movie after this, my only real hope is that they find a director who isn't necessarily a fan of tos but they watched these movies and liked them, and genuinely feel like the characters and the story has potential. I want a director who feels like one movie isn't 'enough' to tell these characters' stories and do everything they are inspired to do with this trek.
a) IF the vulcans now consider Spock a 'real vulcan (tm)' in spite of his human part, and would therefore accept his kids with a vulcan in spite of them possibly being part human like him, they can't nitpick about his kids with a human either because those would too inherit vulcan from him.
Even if, say, Uhura doesn't want to be a mom now she can be ok about him getting asked to be a donor, which in this 'vulcans don't care about his human side anymore' scenario he should have been from the beginning (assuming he's fertile), just like the other survivors, anyway. Why is this point addressed only 3 years after the vulcan diaspora happened? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Any rational person would think that, right after the first movie, ALL the survivors would be asked to donate their sperm and eggs, anyway.
b) IF the vulcans still consider Spock 'tainted' by his human side and not a 'real vulcan (tm)' , they are going to decline his offer to help them regardless he procreates with a vulcan or human or Tilda Swinton. Not to mention that if the vulcans were so exclusive and bigoted still, he'd never find a vulcan lady willing to procreate with him.
However, and in either scenario, the idea that only male/female couples marrying and procreating will save the vulcan race is too outdated and regressive for the reality these people are supposed to live in. And so is the idea that his kids with a human wouldn't be considered real vulcans too (and thus able to continue their legacy, traditions and culture too) only because they are, basically, mixed.
Sure, some might find an interesting parallel between Spock feeling pressure to pick a mate 'in the community', and what happens in our world in some ethnic groups, and the hate and intollerance that interracial or intercultural couples still get. But is it really fitting for trek's ideal of positiveness and inclusinevess to decipt a world that is STILL like that? Especially if done in a way that doesn't even criticize that kind of bigotry, but actually justifies it.
And Spock is NOT T'Pol or Tuvok or Sarek. He's himself the result of an interracial/interspecies couple and that can't be ignored for the sake of drama. Isn't it going backwards with Spock's own struggles as a vulcan/human himself? Not only he'd be forced to erase his human side, but he'd also be forced to pretend his kids are only vulcan. Most of his character development and evolution as someone who can finally embrace both his sides would, essentially, get erased.
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Honestly, it's possible the writers truly only intended that line to be McCoy just making fun of the situation and derailing the actual point (ie Spock wanting to leave starfleet to help his people, thus the issue between him and Uhura really being only related to a long distance relationship and him not wanting to ask her to sacrifice her career for him, and her not wanting him to stay just for her if helping the vulcans was so important to him), but reducing Spock's conflict to this making vulcan babies business is so terribly lame. I get that with this genre of movie we are often asked to suspend our disblelief and we can't even nitpick too much, but if you want to add conflict to the characters you gotta try finding excuses that make sense and don't look like lame pretexts to add drama.
The fact that Spock IS half human should have been addressed in this movie. They (and some fans too) need to stop remembering he's part human only when they want to explain why he's emotional, but then a moment later they pretend he's only vulcan when that does fit their narrative better.
But, again, in my opinion Lin didn't deliver when it comes to the characters and their motivations. From Kirk's conflict, to Spock's and then the villain's motives (not to mention Uhura's side in the break up and her feelings, and Sulu's feelings about his family being in Yorktown when Krall wanted to destroy it).. everything that had any vague chance to add depth is only barely developed, or not developed at all.
I was disappointed by his interviews and the fact he doesn't even seem to really make an effort to talk about certain aspects and explain their story-telling process, adding layers that we maybe couldn't see in the movie, but after thinking about it more maybe it's not that surprising that he seems to have nothing to say about these characters and he didn't seem to be invested in their stories. It's like it's not his story, not his trek, not his characters, not his dynamics. Maybe it's just human and he did his best in the circumstances he was in.
If we get another movie after this, my only real hope is that they find a director who isn't necessarily a fan of tos but they watched these movies and liked them, and genuinely feel like the characters and the story has potential. I want a director who feels like one movie isn't 'enough' to tell these characters' stories and do everything they are inspired to do with this trek.
I find it amusing that some fans of TOS/Reboot Trek create a saga around Spock as the only Vulcan hybrid in the universe and the whole planet was bullying him. He was bullied in school by a few kids, we see one teacher display his prejudice about his mother, and yet the other 6 billion odd vulcans are tainted with the brush of racial prejudice. I suspect most of Vulcan and its colonies have either never heard of Spock or could not care less who Spock is. I doubt after 200 years of relations between humans and vulcans, Sarek is the first and only vulcan to dip into the ocean of interspecies loving.
OTOH, Sarek is a celebrity of sorts due to his professional status, and his son has made news both in terms of tarnishing the celebrity dad's rep and (after the tabloid interest thus is sparked) piling up personal achievements the Vulcans may feel strongly about. Might be Spock's fiancée isn't the only Vulcan bothered by his bio.
As regards problems with genetic diversity, one would think Vulcans would be masters of dealing with that. They live on a desert planet, after all - the whole telepathically arranged marriage thing may be a social solution to the dangers of boys otherwise not bothering to cross swaths of sand for potential girls. If they have successfully juggled the genomes of desert populations numbering in the hundreds or thousands only, then saving the species from a global bottleneck shouldn't be that much of an extra burden, with actually greater numbers available.
I mean, Vulcans had an atomic age back when the fastest form of transport on Earth was the horse, a practical tool for over-the-horizon liaisons for the elite 1% of the population only, and the poor only had access to their own (in a good case) two feet. Yet Vulcan hasn't bred out black and white skins, flat and sharp noses, curly and straight hair. Significant isolation of populations is suggested here, maintained out of preference rather than necessity. If Vulcans are inbred as the result, they prefer it that way, and have preferred for millennia.
Timo Saloniemi
As regards problems with genetic diversity, one would think Vulcans would be masters of dealing with that. They live on a desert planet, after all - the whole telepathically arranged marriage thing may be a social solution to the dangers of boys otherwise not bothering to cross swaths of sand for potential girls. If they have successfully juggled the genomes of desert populations numbering in the hundreds or thousands only, then saving the species from a global bottleneck shouldn't be that much of an extra burden, with actually greater numbers available.
I mean, Vulcans had an atomic age back when the fastest form of transport on Earth was the horse, a practical tool for over-the-horizon liaisons for the elite 1% of the population only, and the poor only had access to their own (in a good case) two feet. Yet Vulcan hasn't bred out black and white skins, flat and sharp noses, curly and straight hair. Significant isolation of populations is suggested here, maintained out of preference rather than necessity. If Vulcans are inbred as the result, they prefer it that way, and have preferred for millennia.
Timo Saloniemi
it's not just the fans, but the writers too because you can just bet that if they were to expand this storyline further, they'd just go to the route that either the vulcans discriminate Spock, or they accept him but discriminate Uhura and force him to marry a vulcan ~because of reasons.
The truth is, in fiction what makes the most sense for the average rational person doing 1+1=2 doesn't always coincide with what the writers do, especially when they are looking for pretexts to add drama.
For me the conflict is a non-existent one from almost any aspect I analyze it (as I explained in my previous comments) but mostly because the vulcans must be a tad better than that (infinite diversity in infinite combinations, anyone?) and because, really, if they truly are trying to save their race by forcing people into unwanted relationships with 100% vulcans only, then they are truly hopeless.
I know they aren't canon, but I have to give kudos to the writer(s) of the comics for being a bit different? in this aspect when decipting vulcans in the starfleet academy series. They introduce this vulcan girl who decided to join starfleet and not only her parents weren't against her choice, they actually were the first to urge her to choose starfleet and pursue her dreams there. Why? Because they thought that a career in starfleet was a great opportunity for her as they felt like their people were becoming a bit too insular.
It's nice to see someone acknowledging, in some way, the existence of vulcans who aren't like the bullies who discriminated Spock.
I also appreciate that when decipting Sarek in regards to Uhura, and Spock having a relationship with her, they didn't make him the hostile (and hypocritical in his case) father who wants his son to date a vulcan instead: he actually is fond of her and finds her a good match for his son. Would the movies do the same or it would be almost automatic for them to decipt Sarek in a negative light (in spite of that not making sense after what happened in the first movie, and what losing his planet and Amanda made him realize about Spock. Cue the scene where he admitted he loved Amanda) just because that would add more drama than allowing the storyline that might make a bit more sense for the integrity of the character? I'm not sure.
I didn't read the rest of the thread after this post because of "Spocklets."
The name of my Star Trek tribute band will now be Uhura and the Spocklets.
Here's how they portrayed her in the AR comics...
Dislike intensely the TNG look of Vulcans and Romulans which sadly ENT copied like sheep, TOS made them more diverse and they had a smaller budget! Pity the comics were not as creative.
Nah, an actress with a more Eurasian look perhaps.
No offence to Ms. Jolie, but she's too old to be a contemporary of Quinto's Spock.
If you wanted to go stickily on appearance, then I think Moon Bloodgood would be a good choice. She can't act though.
Liv Munn seems the most obvious. Or Maggie Q. Celina Jade from Arrow, but she might be too young.
Liv Munn seems the most obvious. Or Maggie Q. Celina Jade from Arrow, but she might be too young.
