Vreenak

[Finn]

Watching In The Pale Moonlight....

Is there any chance Vreenak was a changeling? I mean Garak, as an former agent of the Obsidian Order, probably had a good reason to think Tolar would have made a damn good forgery that wouldn't fool a Romulan senator. Yes, Garak put a bomb on that ship of his but why go through the trouble of getting Tolar... I always wondered how Vreenak knew it was a fake since it first came out. Unless he was once with the Tal Shiar, I don't see how someone who worked with a former Obsidian Order agent wouldn't be able to fool him.

I just don't buy Garak's comments in the end of the episode. He was just covering the bases.

I've watched this episode several times already. After my latest viewing, I'm leaning toward Vreenak being a changeling.

 

[ItIsGreen]

The Romulans are incredibly suspicious by nature and very security conscious, it's doubtful any level of forgery would fool them. Garak knew that from the start. His aim was always to get the data rod onto Vreenak's ship, then blow it up, knowing that the Romulans would dismiss any remaining signs that it was a fake as damage caused by the explosion. How he knew the rod would survive the explosion in the first place is another question...

 

[Paradise City]

Garak still needed a high quality data rod to survive the explosion and Tolar remained the best guy to furnish that.

 

[Finn]

^Yes...yes..

I was more bothered by how Vreenak seemed to be ardent pro-dominion when the Dominion were still practically strangers to this side of the galaxy. Why on Romulus would Rommies trust them at all???

 

[USS Firefly]

They didn't trust them, but didn't want to take risk by going to war

 

[Red Shirt]

Sisko thought he was enlisting Garak's help when in fact Garak devised his own plan using Sisko, Tolar, and Vreenak as stooges maneuvering the Romulans into the war against the Dominion. Vreenak wasn't a changeling, just a cautious supporter of the nonaggression pact and therefor a threat and important enough to get the Romulans attention when eliminated. A superb episode.

 

[locutus101]

Watching In The Pale Moonlight....

Is there any chance Vreenak was a changeling? I mean Garak, as an former agent of the Obsidian Order, probably had a good reason to think Tolar would have made a damn good forgery that wouldn't fool a Romulan senator. Yes, Garak put a bomb on that ship of his but why go through the trouble of getting Tolar... I always wondered how Vreenak knew it was a fake since it first came out. Unless he was once with the Tal Shiar, I don't see how someone who worked with a former Obsidian Order agent wouldn't be able to fool him.

I just don't buy Garak's comments in the end of the episode. He was just covering the bases.

I've watched this episode several times already. After my latest viewing, I'm leaning toward Vreenak being a changeling.

I think Vreenak was your typical Romulan asshole and that as Garak said himself the forgery probably wasn't up to par.

Garak had to kill tolar because it's pretty obvious that the latter wouldn't have been able to hold his tongue and that sooner or later this would have become common knowledge. Killing Vreenak was Garak's plan B.

 

[Red Shirt]

I think Vreenak was your typical Romulan asshole and that as Garak said himself the forgery probably wasn't up to par.

Garak had to kill tolar because it's pretty obvious that the latter wouldn't have been able to hold his tongue and that sooner or later this would have become common knowledge. Killing Vreenak was Garak's plan B.

I disagree, Garak assassinating Vreenak was his master plan A from the get go.

 

[ItIsGreen]

I disagree, Garak assassinating Vreenak was his master plan A from the get go.

Agreed. He knew it was the only way to get the job done, and he knew Sisko wouldn't have the cojones to do it. So he manipulated everyone from the get go.

 

[locutus101]

I disagree, Garak assassinating Vreenak was his master plan A from the get go.

Either way, it had nothing to do with the possibility of Vreenak being a changeling.

 

[locutus101]

Agreed. He knew it was the only way to get the job done, and he knew Sisko wouldn't have the cojones to do it. So he manipulated everyone from the get go.

I am sure that tolar was the best forger that he could get, but apparently the best wasn't enough and that's why he had to do what he did.

 

[Red Shirt]

Either way, it had nothing to do with the possibility of Vreenak being a changeling.

I never said he was a changeling and Vreenak being eliminated was the linchpin of Garak's plan.

I am sure that tolar was the best forger that he could get, but apparently the best wasn't enough and that's why he had to do what he did.

Garak knew the data rod wouldn't pass an inspection, it just had to be good enough in a damaged state from the explosion to appear legitimate so the Romulans would conclude the Dominion had assassinated Vreenak.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Garak knew the data rod wouldn't pass an inspection

He hoped it would. Garak's plan clearly had two parts.

 

[locutus101]

...
Garak knew the data rod wouldn't pass an inspection, it just had to be good enough in a damaged state from the explosion to appear legitimate so the Romulans would conclude the Dominion had assassinated Vreenak.

This is pure speculation on your part. There is no reason to doubt that Garak thought that the Rod would pass muster but that he had a second plan, just in case it did not.

 

[Red Shirt]

This is pure speculation on your part. There is no reason to doubt that Garak thought that the Rod would pass muster but that he had a second plan, just in case it did not.

No, it's not speculation. Partial episode summary from Memory Alpha (emphasis mine):
"Realizing what has really happened, Sisko excuses himself. After walking through the promenade seething with fury, he marches into Garak's shop and greets the tailor with a backhand to the face. He accuses him of killing Vreenak, which Garak immediately admits. Sisko accuses him of never believing the rod would pass inspection, claiming he only wanted to lure Vreenak to the station to plant a bomb on his shuttle.

Garak counters that while he did indeed hope that the rod would pass Vreenak's inspection, he realized that it was possible, even probable, that it would not. This is why he planted a bomb on the Romulan shuttle, and made its destruction look like Dominion sabotage. As for Tolar, the forger, Garak casually dismisses him as another "casualty of war", confirming that he has eliminated him as well.

Sisko is furious and punches Garak again, but Garak reminds Sisko that all of this was necessary: when the Tal Shiar investigate, the explosion would appear as if the Dominion destroyed the shuttle. Moreover, in the wreckage they will find a badly damaged data rod containing evidence that the Dominion was planning to betray the Romulans, the damage to the rod masking any imperfections in the forgery. It will appear that Vreenak was on his way to expose the Dominion before being blown up. And the more the Dominion protest their innocence, the more the Romulans would believe they're guilty, because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. Garak reminds the Captain that this is why he came to him for help in the first place: because he knew that Garak was willing do things that he couldn't, no matter how distasteful and illegal. The most important thing is that Sisko is going to achieve exactly what he intended, since in light of the damning "evidence" against the Dominion, the Romulans will surely enter the war against the Dominion now. Garak tells Sisko he has very likely just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, having only had to sacrifice the lives of one criminal, an unsympathetic senator, and perhaps his self respect in the process. Garak calls that "a bargain", and Sisko has little choice but to admit that he's right."

 

[locutus101]

No, it's not speculation. Partial episode summary from Memory Alpha (emphasis mine):
"Realizing what has really happened, Sisko excuses himself. After walking through the promenade seething with fury, he marches into Garak's shop and greets the tailor with a backhand to the face. He accuses him of killing Vreenak, which Garak immediately admits. Sisko accuses him of never believing the rod would pass inspection, claiming he only wanted to lure Vreenak to the station to plant a bomb on his shuttle.

Garak counters that while he did indeed hope that the rod would pass Vreenak's inspection, he realized that it was possible, even probable, that it would not. This is why he planted a bomb on the Romulan shuttle, and made its destruction look like Dominion sabotage. As for Tolar, the forger, Garak casually dismisses him as another "casualty of war", confirming that he has eliminated him as well.

Sisko is furious and punches Garak again, but Garak reminds Sisko that all of this was necessary: when the Tal Shiar investigate, the explosion would appear as if the Dominion destroyed the shuttle. Moreover, in the wreckage they will find a badly damaged data rod containing evidence that the Dominion was planning to betray the Romulans, the damage to the rod masking any imperfections in the forgery. It will appear that Vreenak was on his way to expose the Dominion before being blown up. And the more the Dominion protest their innocence, the more the Romulans would believe they're guilty, because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. Garak reminds the Captain that this is why he came to him for help in the first place: because he knew that Garak was willing do things that he couldn't, no matter how distasteful and illegal. The most important thing is that Sisko is going to achieve exactly what he intended, since in light of the damning "evidence" against the Dominion, the Romulans will surely enter the war against the Dominion now. Garak tells Sisko he has very likely just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, having only had to sacrifice the lives of one criminal, an unsympathetic senator, and perhaps his self respect in the process. Garak calls that "a bargain", and Sisko has little choice but to admit that he's right."

You're just confirming what I said: "Garak hoped that the rod would pass inspection but he had a plan B in case it did not."

 

[ItIsGreen]

You're just confirming what I said: "Garak hoped that the rod would pass inspection but he had a plan B in case it did not."

Well, not quite. Because once it was on Vreenak's ship Garak had no way of knowing whether he thought it was genuine or not. So he erred on the side of caution and blew the ship up anyway. Even if Vreenak had screeched "It's REEEEEEAAAAAAL!", he still would have gone boom. Therefore plan A.

 

[locutus101]

Well, not quite. Because once it was on Vreenak's ship Garak had no way of knowing whether he thought it was genuine or not. So he erred on the side of caution and blew the ship up anyway. Even if Vreenak had screeched "It's REEEEEEAAAAAAL!", he still would have gone boom. Therefore plan A.

You don't know that, and it is contradicted by the only person who knows the truth, IE Garak.

So, just as I said, you're speculating.

Plus if Vreenak had said "It's REEEEAAAAl!" he would have stolen Sisko's line in another episode, and that's just not nice.

 

[Red Shirt]

You're just confirming what I said: "Garak hoped that the rod would pass inspection but he had a plan B in case it did not."

You're not seeing the nuances, indeed Garak "hoped" the fake recording would pass inspection but he knew a forgery ultimately wouldn't fly so assassination was always his prime motive premised on an elaborate charade of misdirection. That misdirection is what makes the episode so intriguing.

 

[locutus101]

You don't get it, indeed Garak "hoped" the fake recording would pass inspection but he knew a forgery ultimately wouldn't fly so assassination was always his prime motive premised on an elaborate charade of misdirection.

That's pure speculation. Garak says otherwise.