Voyager's starting position

[Sindatur]

Here are some maps.

http://www.loony-archivist.com/lowerdecks/maps.html

So I took that map, corrected for the distortion in Photoshop and then drew lines from Ocampa to Earth and Ocampa to idran.

The wormhole is closer, according to that map.

Behold.

Are those routes possible though? To the Gamma Quadrant You're going across the arms, is that empty space in between, and can those trips be made safely in a short enough time with the resources they had? Through the Delta Quadrant, is it safe to travel that close to Galactic Center? Janeway's route, seemed to avoid crossing between the arms most of the time, though I didn't see all the episodes, I only recall once they travelled between the arms.

Also, the map I saw, had Dominion Space much closer to the Delta Quadrant, should it be so far away from Delta?

 

[Timo]

You're going across the arms, is that empty space in between, and can those trips be made safely in a short enough time with the resources they had?

There are plenty of stars between the arms - and Star Trek shows us that even stars that in the real world are unlikely to support helpful planets (that is, stars of the type commonly found in the gaps between the arms) are in the Trek world teeming with comfy Class M worlds.

On the other hand, the ship did encounter various voids in its journeys. "Night" specifically deals with a major "star desert" they have to cross. And "star deserts" were tackled by Kirk and even Archer centuries earlier, without much difficulty.

Also, the map I saw, had Dominion Space much closer to the Delta Quadrant, should it be so far away from Delta?

The first map linked in this thread is the one closest to the canonically glimpsed one, that is, the one that was used as background art on the bridge and astrometrics monitors of the ship. That map shows a zigzagging route and a Dominion located far away from the quadrant border, and seems to agree with the episodes remarkably well.

...With one obvious exception. In "False Profits", the two Ferengi of TNG "The Price" fame are found on Voyager's route - but "The Price" established that they were stranded mere 200 lightyears away from the previous location of the wandering wormhole's endpoint, and that previous location had been in the Gamma Quadrant rather than Delta. That inevitably means that the planet in "False Profits" should be no farther than 200 ly from the Gamma/Delta border, whereas Janeway's route logically goes nowhere near this border.

I guess we have to reinterpret the dialogue from "The Price" somewhat to explain this anomaly. Or then we have to assume the Ferengi managed to re-enter the wandering wormhole, but it wandered more and again spat them out from the wrong end, deep in Delta.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Satyrquaze]

She'd rather set a course directly through Borg space rather than a species that other than the destruction of the USS Odyssey and 'removal' of a Bajoran colony in the Gamma quadrant had been relatively silent up to the launch of Voyager.

Mankind had no idea where "Borg space" might be when the Voyager sailed out, mind you. (Well, Bev Crusher in ST:First Contact claimed that they resided somewhere in Delta, but we never learned how she came to that unlikely conclusion.) And wherever that space was, it wasn't in a spot that Janeway would inevitably have to visit.

Timo Saloniemi

I know it was described in a TNG Writers Bible complete with a map and large "U" shape within the middle of the Delta Quadrant marked "Known boundary of Borg Space". Similar maps place system J-25 on the far side and "north" of Romulan space in the Beta Quadrant near the Delta Quadrant.

The fact that it says 'known' boundary says to me that the characters know where it is.

 

[Timo]

But the characters have no right to know such a thing. That is, they have never talked to the Borg about it, and Picard doesn't appear to remember anything strategically important about his Locutus days.

If such information is available to Starfleet, it must come from off-camera sources. Nothing wrong with such sources, of course, and nothing wrong with Borg encounters other than the ones we saw; indeed, VOY makes mention of many a battle with the Borg that we failed to see. It's just that there's no onscreen event that would give the characters the right to know the boundaries of Borg territory.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tighr]

Mankind had no idea where "Borg space" might be when the Voyager sailed out, mind you. (Well, Bev Crusher in ST:First Contact claimed that they resided somewhere in Delta, but we never learned how she came to that unlikely conclusion.)

All we knew from Q Who? is that the uncharted star system J25 was 7,000 LY away from their last position in the Alpha Quadrant. They know where it is, it's just never been charted. It's possible that could have been in the Delta Quadrant, but at the very least its in that direction.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That was probably the same cube on it's way home from "testing" the Romulan Neutral Zone after finding no culture worthwhile assimilating.

Until it saw Enterprise being dragged about Q and they assumed that it was some sort of secret stardrive they missed on their first passover.

 

[Timo]

7,000 lightyears would call for some 15,000 extra lightyears traveled at the very least before the sum total would whisk the starship to the Delta side of the border... A bit unlikely IMHO.

On the other hand, in "Descent" the first, accidental trip through a Borg transwarp conduit takes the heroes across an unknown distance - but LaForge's analysis of this trip features the following graphic:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s6/6x26/descentpartone451.jpg

What does "EXTRAPOLATED TERMINATION DELTA QUADRANT" mean? That the heroes ended up in Delta with that first hop? Or that the next conduit would take them to Delta? Either way, Lore's hideout might have been in the Delta Quadrant. Or then not. But the fact that rogue Borg were hiding in Delta would actually be good support to the idea that the normal Borg were somewhere else altogether! It's not a good idea to hide under the very noses of one's worst enemy when those noses can sniff one out across considerable interstellar distances.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

COLLINS: The training cruise was supposed to last three months. We had seven regular officers and a crew of thirty five cadets. The plan was for the cadets to run the ship while the officers observed and critiqued our performance.
JAKE: So this was a training ship. Like the other one, the, er, the Republic.
COLLINS: Not quite. The Republic's an old ship. I don't think she's left the Terran system in fifty years. The Valiant's a state of the art warship. Our mission was to circumnavigate the entire Federation before returning home.
JAKE: The entire Federation? With a ship of cadets?
COLLINS: Not just cadets, Mister Sisko.

Voyager managed 1000 LY a year.

The Valiant though could circumnavigate the federation in 3 months.

The circumference of the federation was 250 light years.

It's possible a lot of the Federation is detached for the core of the federation like Hawaii and Alaska from the rest of America, or the Valiants cruising speed was much faster than Voyagers because they knew where they were going and they knew were all their waiting supply depots were, because it was a standard class that every red Squad did every year.

Meanwhile the Olympia spent 8 years just cruising around the Beta qudrant on task, so in the long run, kathryn had only been missing less than half the time merely unusually long missions take which they send other Captains on to forward the Federations understanding of the universe.

but with how the federation accepts membership and doesn't conquer, there's going to be a cheese holes belonging to 'protected' worlds who are thousands to millions of years away from petitioning membership, as well as many worlds that are not interested in membership, and other worlds that may want membership but do not qualify.

 

[Timo]

A side remark: I'd think "circumnavigating the entire Federation" would be analogous to the sort of "circumnavigation" in Earth history where warships went to as many important ports as possible to show the flag. It was "circum" on Earth's oceans because you had to go round things such as continents (or the whole damn planet) since your ships didn't do overland stretches. But in the context of 3D navigation between stars, "circum" could be colloquial, and the actual movement would be straight lines and zigzagging within the circumference - a traveling salesman routine that might end up being just a couple of hundred lightyears if the definition of "important ports" were narrow enough.

Even without the benefit of the "shorter trips can be done at higher speeds" rule, the Valiant thus might manage the tour in a quarter of a year - without this meaning that the circumference of the UFP is limited to a maximum of 250 lightyears.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Skywalker]

I think it actually would have been a slightly longer trip (by a few thousand light-years). The Voyager would have had to cross a great deal of both the Delta and Gamma Quadrants to reach the wormhole near Idran, IMO.
http://images.wikia.com/borgcollective/images/4/48/2-quadrants.jpg

Also keeping in mind that the Borg transwarp hub that ultimately got Voyager home was on the edge of the Delta Quadrant, which allowed them to bypass the Beta Quadrant entirely. So even though Janeway didn't know about the hub at the time, traveling through the Delta Quadrant rather than setting course for the Idran wormhole was definitely the right choice.

 

[tighr]

Yeah, that Red Squad quote is clearly a continuity error. There's no way they would be able to visit important corners of the Federation, let alone circumnavigate it, in only three months.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Also keeping in mind that the Borg transwarp hub that ultimately got Voyager home was on the edge of the Delta Quadrant, which allowed them to bypass the Beta Quadrant entirely. So even though Janeway didn't know about the hub at the time, traveling through the Delta Quadrant rather than setting course for the Idran wormhole was definitely the right choice.

No.

Janeway not only knew about it, but she knew that there were 5 more of them spread out about the galaxy.

When they ran into the hub in Endgame, Kathy slams her face into her palm and says to Seven "Dude! You told me there were 6 of these, but you could have mentioned that we were in the neighbourhood of one when you got up this morning!"

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hardly a reason to think her chanceswerebetterforging directly throughBorg spaceand then much latermaybe Romulan space.

Well, by the time they arrived without shortcuts, Romulan space wouldn't have been much of a problem, at least.

 

[Timo]

There's no way they would be able to visit important corners of the Federation, let alone circumnavigate it, in only three months.

How so?

TNG establishes that our heroes can visit opposing corners of the UFP within a short period of time without really trying. Take, say, the fifth season: only three episodes and 55 stardates from the Klingon homeworld in "Redemption" to the Cardassian front of "Ensign Ro", then to Romulus in time for tea and treason in "Unification", then to Breen territory in "Hero Worship", all within a quarter of a season/year - and with a high number of episodes dealing with unexplored space in between.

Touring the Federation in three months ought to be a breeze for a TNG era starship. The UFP has never been too big to be fairly quickly spanned by starships - and any starship coming after Archer's would be fast enough to translate this travel time data into a respectable distance, in the ballpark of hundreds of lightyears.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tighr]

There's no way they would be able to visit important corners of the Federation, let alone circumnavigate it, in only three months.

How so?

TNG establishes that our heroes can visit opposing corners of the UFP within a short period of time without really trying. Take, say, the fifth season: only three episodes and 55 stardates from the Klingon homeworld in "Redemption" to the Cardassian front of "Ensign Ro", then to Romulus in time for tea and treason in "Unification", then to Breen territory in "Hero Worship", all within a quarter of a season/year - and with a high number of episodes dealing with unexplored space in between.

You are correct that these episodes take place. My response is that I blame it on a lazy continuity production assistant.

There is a contradiction that exists: either warp speed is much faster than we were previously led to believe, or the planets in the Federation are a lot closer together than we were led to believe. Now, it's one thing if you want to try and come up with an in-canon explanation for how those two things can co-exist, but personally I'm going with continuity error.

 

[Timo]

What do you mean by "led to believe"? What part of Star Trek suggests that the Federation should be wider than three warp-months?

I see no contradiction anywhere, as the UFP has always been a tiny island in the middle of unexplored space. And the fact that it takes decades to get the Voyager home while it only takes days to get Kirk, Picard or Sisko across the Federation is one of the more enjoyable dramatic points of VOY, as it drives home how small the UFP is and how vast the unexplored part of our "own" galaxy is in comparison.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

They talk about petitions to join up, and expansion and colonies but...

failed Colonies

Ceded borders

Conquered worlds

Abandoned worlds

Seriously, the Maquis is all about how the federation was exploring the universe and had to take a couple steps back, then how the Maquis said &&&& that.

Ghost worlds...

Shrinkage.

Isn't it possible, although unlikely, that the Federation is smaller than it was in Kirks day?

 

[Satyrquaze]

Hardly a reason to think her chances were better forging directly through Borg spaceand then much later maybe Romulan space.

Well, by the time they arrived without shortcuts, Romulan space wouldn't have been much of a problem, at least.

The homeworld(s)? Definately. But that doesn't mean any other Romulan controlled worlds would simply evaporate. If the canon of STO is to believed, by 2409 the Romulan Empire is as strong as its ever been.

 

[Guy Gardener]

PICARD: But if it is here, then it means something. Damn it, Geordi, I know what we have to do!
LAFORGE: All right. Okay. But first, there is no Neutral Zone, remember?
PICARD: Right. Right. Klingons. In this time period, the Klingons have taken over the Romulan Empire.
LAFORGE: Right now relations between us and the Klingons aren't too cosy.

there are many futures to choose from.

 

[Satyrquaze]

On the other hand, the very last thing Janeway would have learned before leaving Deep Space 9 was that the station's commander had destroyed the wormhole once already and would do so again in a heartbeat. And the presence of an enemy at the wormhole mouth was 110% certain.

Timo Saloniemi

You mean a heartbeat in a dream sequence where nearly everyone else in the Alpha quadrant (including Sisko's superiors) went insane and were making hugely out-of-character consessions to the Dominion.

And actually, by the time Voyager would have gotten there, the Dominion was soundly defeated.

It still doesn't qualify her decision to take a direct route for Earth and stopping at every. single. wormhole or anomalous reading along the way to see if it could get them home any faster when there was a known stable wormhole a lot closer than strolling all the way to Earth as planned.

But somehow the Dominion is more of a deterant than the Borg? I don't buy it.

PICARD: But if it is here, then it means something. Damn it, Geordi, I know what we have to do!
LAFORGE: All right. Okay. But first, there is no Neutral Zone, remember?
PICARD: Right. Right. Klingons. In this time period, the Klingons have taken over the Romulan Empire.
LAFORGE: Right now relations between us and the Klingons aren't too cosy.

there are many futures to choose from.

Point. But, we already know several important aspects of that future will never come to pass.