Voyager's main problems
- Thread starter DS9 Gal AZ
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Heh, you took the words right out of my mouth there.
Of course, the whole B5/DS9 controversy is a discussion for another thread ...
Some people just don't read carefully enough, or are much too ready to snap at someone or correct them.
The first time I watched Voyager, the inconsistencies really slapped me across the face.
I remember everytime the number of crew on board was said and it was a completely arbitrary number that made no sense relating to previous episodes, I just slapped my head.
The first time I watched Voyager, the inconsistencies really slapped me across the face.
I remember everytime the number of crew on board was said and it was a completely arbitrary number that made no sense relating to previous episodes, I just slapped my head.
There was a time when that one and the same thing though, if Star Trek isn't groundbreaking then it's following the pack instead of leading it as it once did.
The pack in question which Voyager was following was it's own tail, ie TOS & TNG.
The real pack, Babylon 5, Farscape, Buffy, Stargate and Xena, was a totally different pack, Voyager didn't know shit about to chase.
The real pack, Babylon 5, Farscape, Buffy, Stargate and Xena, was a totally different pack, Voyager didn't know shit about to chase.
Numbers 3, 4 and 7 can all be seen in comparing DS9's holosuite episodes to VOY's holodeck episodes.
Voyager did the same thing as TNG, for the most part.
At times, Voyager's writers didn't seem to know their characters well enough to keep their personalities the same from episode to episode, let alone craft an interesting drama that stemmed from the characters' internal lives.
Voyager did the same thing as TNG, for the most part.
"Computer, end program!"
(Silence.)
"Oh my god, the safety protocols are disengaged, we can't end the program and we can't call for help!"
"You mean if we die in here ..."
"We die for real!"
(Dun dun dahhhhhhhh.)
With the exception of "Our Man Bashir," DS9's relatively few holosuite episodes had drama that came naturally from the characters, not from a contrived malfunction. In "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," it was all about the human drama of the game. In "Badda Bing, Badda Bang," the crew knew there were no real-life consequences to failure, but they cared anyway, and it more or less made sense. "It's Only a Paper Moon" was all about the human (OK, Ferengi) drama of Nog's recovery.(Silence.)
"Oh my god, the safety protocols are disengaged, we can't end the program and we can't call for help!"
"You mean if we die in here ..."
"We die for real!"
(Dun dun dahhhhhhhh.)
At times, Voyager's writers didn't seem to know their characters well enough to keep their personalities the same from episode to episode, let alone craft an interesting drama that stemmed from the characters' internal lives.
DS9 being groundbreaking is what turned off many TNG viewers. Less people were watching DS9 even with TNG as a lead in program or did we all forget they added the Defiant and Worf to the cast to get back that audience? How many Trek fans refused to watch DS9 at first because they didn't have a ship? Voyager had no choice but to be like TNG because by fans not fully embracing DS9 we were telling the producers we wanted more TNG. The Producers and writers can only go by what feedback they recieve while the show is in production. It's not correct to blame Voyager for not doing anything new when the fans are saying they don't accept it.
It took nearly 3 seasons for most of the TOS fans to accept TNG.
A show in production can't wait that long for the audience to warm up to a new idea. They need to do things quickly. They couldn't please Trek fans who are too slow to accept change, so they went after the general casual viewer that liked TNG.
Very good point you make here. I have to admit you're right. For all my love of DS9, it was probably the least popular of the Trek series (with the possible exception of Enterprise), although critics did like it at the time I think.
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Thanks to Netflix, I get to revisit the series' I never finished the first time around. So I've been watching Voyager on Netflix for a week or so, now, and I'm about 1/4 of the way through Season 2, and sorry stj, but it's just chock full of technobabble, and I think I know the significant difference between TNG and VOY in that specific area.
See, TNG usually used the technobabble once the major point of the story had been reached, and they needed a solution. VOY used technobabble right out of the gate. Inside of the first 3 episodes, I heard more technobabble in the first 10 minutes of each one than I did in a dozen episodes of TNG. I mean, in TNG, it seemed the technobabble was used to resolve a storyline if the writers wrote themselves into a corner. In VOY, it was used whether the story needed it or not. It was used just to be used. So far it feels like filler, like it's there to support gaps in the story. I can recall several episodes where they started digging into the technobabble, and I sighed wondering why we were hitting it so early.
I have watched the series' TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, and ENT from beginning to end, and the first 1 and 1/4 seasons of VOY. If you use the word 'technobabble', VOY is the series that leaps into my head immediately, and I have no reason to hate the show at all.
See, TNG usually used the technobabble once the major point of the story had been reached, and they needed a solution. VOY used technobabble right out of the gate. Inside of the first 3 episodes, I heard more technobabble in the first 10 minutes of each one than I did in a dozen episodes of TNG. I mean, in TNG, it seemed the technobabble was used to resolve a storyline if the writers wrote themselves into a corner. In VOY, it was used whether the story needed it or not. It was used just to be used. So far it feels like filler, like it's there to support gaps in the story. I can recall several episodes where they started digging into the technobabble, and I sighed wondering why we were hitting it so early.
I have watched the series' TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, and ENT from beginning to end, and the first 1 and 1/4 seasons of VOY. If you use the word 'technobabble', VOY is the series that leaps into my head immediately, and I have no reason to hate the show at all.
Except that it was the general viewers who turned off DS9 notthe fans, DS9 replaced TNG in a number of markets as a move to get the TNG fans and it didn't work from the start. Even on Spike years after DS9 ended it failed to gain viewers, even adding Worf only caused a small spike in the ratings for DS9. People just found other shows to watch if they couldn't watch TNG.
I could never watch TNG, since I could never suspend disbelief in Data. (Why does an android want to get old and die?) Except that unlike Torres (why would a woman want to be a macho Klingon?) Data was much, much too central to ignore.
But it's true that the "technobabble" was littered throughout the Voyuager episodes. Mostly it was supposed to be the jargon of professionals doing their job. It doesn't make any scientific sense, mostly. Do you really think that people engaged in technical work talk like their offduty selves? I don't, and that's why I just tuned it out. Or I suppose, thinking that, explains why I could tune it out.
And there were quite a few occasions when some gobbledygook problem arose to set up some physical jeopardy, too. The really weird thing getting on my nerves is reading reams of nonsense about technobabble resolving the drama, which just isn't so.
By and large, if one hates big words, one should stick to fantasy and forget SF.
PS I was wondering if someone would remember Real Life. The characters knew perfectly well it was all just a simulation and still cared.
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Data: Created by a human to assimilate into human society. Rescued by humans, wants to emulate his rescuers. Wants to be human. Humans die.
Torres: She's half Klingon. Like Spock's half Vulcan side, the alien part of one's personality can overpower the humanity in that person. Klingons are powerful warriors.
I expect someone to use 5 words where 5 words will do, as a professional. Using 50 words to describe a 5 word process makes no sense. Aside from taking too much time to explain, it doesn't sound natural or organic, like it would coming from someone who was learned in the skill. In essence, someone who is using a litany of technical terms out of context is trying to impress me, and if we're pressed for time and there is an urgent situation, they're blowing smoke up my ass when I need results instead.
But it is so. VOY relies heavily on technobabble. Again, I'm only a 1/4 of the way through season 2 and it's the most techno-babbly show I've ever watched. There were times when VOY would have the technobabble as the cause, plot point, and resolution of a given episode. Again, I'm watching the show for the first time in a very long time, and the technobabble has come to the point where it is very distracting.
It is fortunate, then, that my vocabulary is comprehensive, and as vast as it is deep, so that a science fiction television show doesn't tax it unnecessarily. I had read 2001: A Space Odyssey, The War of the Worlds, The Time Machine, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and Journey to the Center of the Earth, by the ripe old age of 8. I imagine such a pedigree would perhaps prepare me for the science fiction juggernaut that is Star Trek: Voyager.
Some really great points raised about VOY's limitations. Any show can be improved upon, and so a huge laundry list of all the things that could have been better gets to be a bit much after a while.
If there's ONE thing I would have changed about VOY, it would be to make it more visceral. Similar to nuBSG. Voyager gets damaged? It continues to show from episode to episode. The halls have grit in them, because the "clean bots" are over taxed or there's not enough spare power to run them. Supplies must be conserved. More barter-exchange activities with DQ aliens. Some "Voyager in repair" episodes, where the ship is on some planet being overhauled because it has taken on too much damage, and the crew have a handful of episodes living on the planet with all kinds of curious encounters. Less use of the holodeck, because of the energy constraints. Some really keen technology acquired that helps boost power reserves. More effort for eluding hostile aliens instead of confronting, because Voyager is alone and has no back-up. And when they do confront, they get damaged and most of the time either luckily escape or are helped by a benevolent species that takes some benefits in exchange for the help.
If it was more like this, I could forgive any of the other stated flaws. It would have felt more believable, more engaging this way.
If there's ONE thing I would have changed about VOY, it would be to make it more visceral. Similar to nuBSG. Voyager gets damaged? It continues to show from episode to episode. The halls have grit in them, because the "clean bots" are over taxed or there's not enough spare power to run them. Supplies must be conserved. More barter-exchange activities with DQ aliens. Some "Voyager in repair" episodes, where the ship is on some planet being overhauled because it has taken on too much damage, and the crew have a handful of episodes living on the planet with all kinds of curious encounters. Less use of the holodeck, because of the energy constraints. Some really keen technology acquired that helps boost power reserves. More effort for eluding hostile aliens instead of confronting, because Voyager is alone and has no back-up. And when they do confront, they get damaged and most of the time either luckily escape or are helped by a benevolent species that takes some benefits in exchange for the help.
If it was more like this, I could forgive any of the other stated flaws. It would have felt more believable, more engaging this way.
THANK YOU! I couldn't have said it better myself. I am really getting tired of stj implying that if you can't appreciate techno-babble, you're somehow not well read and have a fear of "big words." As Mark Twain said, "Never use a five dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do."
It still got higher ratings than Voyager for nearly all of its run bar the occassional high profile Voyager episode (specifically ones featuring the Borg).
Regarding making Voyager more serialized in order to attract TNG fans, there was sound business logic there but I think the results were mixed. One one hand it certainly improved the ability of the show to attract casual viewers - something self-contained like "Year of Hell" is gonna draw someone into the series more than something like "Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast" where someone might be put off by not immediately what is going on.
But on the other hand, the serialization angle of a show that clearly shouldn't have been done in the TNG format did get flak from actual FANS and critics to this day. Overall I'd say DS9 definitely has the stronger reputation in media circles and that's still something to be proud of.
I remember when I was watching through those early seasons and you're right, the technobabble is totally obnoxious, does get better though. I think the lowpoint of the technobabble-crap episodes comes with "Threshold".
Don't get me wrong, for syndication DS9 did well but Paramount was still looking at TNG numbers and the bigger picture- merchandising!!! Paramount felt DS9 wasn't the show to use to sell product. Seven of Nine sold toys, Seven sold T-Shirts, Video games, etc. This is why she was featured so much in the show. Paramount for their golden ticket in her.
On a side note, you can't compare ratings for DS9 to ratings of Voyager. DS9 like TNG was shown in syndication. Syndicated shows are rated on a different scale and aren't tabulated in with Neilson ratings. Voyager was on a major network who's rating are tabulated and equal to other major networks like ABC, NBC & FOX. Which also means Voyager wasn't in competition with DS9 but rather ALL the other shows on the other major networks. In other words, Voyager had to worry about holding it's own against shows like Law & Order not against other Trek. Ds9 also doesn't have a stronger rep. in the media either. The media is controlled by the studios. Paramount always put Voyager before DS9.
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This is a good example of using 50 words where 5 will do. You're saying: Technobabble is pompous nonsense. Whoops, that just 4 words. Remarkable how easy it is to waste time blowing smoke up someone's ass, no?
The problem with this claim is that obviously you don't have an insurmountable problem with nonsense. Star Trek threw the viewers some scraps of original science (antimatter, a space ship that wasn't a flying saucer or a phallic symbol or even aerodynamic.) But every Trek since has deeply offended the scientifically informed viewer.
The offensiveness of verbal nonsense lies in the big words. I agree that the jargon would be much better if it was actually written, that is, actually thought through for consistency and naturalism. I have read that the putative script writers would just write [tech] in the scripts, for someone else to fill in. The reason they do stuff like this is because they think jargon is just bullshit, like most people who resent big words do. This is why jargon that consists of abbreviations rarely bothers people!
The problem with abolishing technobabble is that getting rid of the big words also gets rid of any interest in sensible exposition, stilted or not. The choice is between militant ignorance and stilted dialogue, like it or not.
Apparently a vast vocabulary doesn't help your critical faculties, because this is not so. You can't support this, without blatantly falsifying episodes.
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You don't seem to understand.
No, the problem is using technobabble as filler and as a plot device.The problem with this claim is that obviously you don't have an insurmountable problem with nonsense. Star Trek threw the viewers some scraps of original science (antimatter, a space ship that wasn't a flying saucer or a phallic symbol or even aerodynamic.) But every Trek since has deeply offended the scientifically informed viewer.
The offensiveness of verbal nonsense lies in the big words. I agree that the jargon would be much better if it was actually written, that is, actually thought through for consistency and naturalism. I have read that the putative script writers would just write [tech] in the scripts, for someone else to fill in. The reason they do stuff like this is because they think jargon is just bullshit, like most people who resent big words do. This is why jargon that consists of abbreviations rarely bothers people!
The problem with abolishing technobabble is that getting rid of the big words also gets rid of any interest in sensible exposition, stilted or not. The choice is between militant ignorance and stilted dialogue, like it or not.
It would behoove you to stop using veiled insults against those who disagree with you. That is twice now that you've remarked against my intelligence. Look, if you love the show so unfailingly that you can't handle some constructive criticism, maybe this thread isn't for you. You seem to be handling things rather poorly and taking them personally.
