Voyager, sorry.... what ? moments.

[The Lonely Man]

Worf did replace Bashir. The show became about the Defiant and the Dominion War and the Klingons, and Bashir's role was significantly diminished after the revamp. Did this little "opinion" escape you, or were you just not watching?

Edit: And he became more insufferable as a result. That ugly 5 O'clock shadow mug bellowing "KahMANdah..."

It would be Captain by this point.

 

[zar]

It would be Captain by this point.

But in @jmidnight_99's universe, Sisko was a terrible character that the producers relegated to a minor role with the introduction of Lt. Commander Worf.

 

[The Lonely Man]

But in @jmidnight_99's universe, Sisko was a terrible character that the producers relegated to a minor role with the introduction of Lt. Commander Worf.

KahMANda WhoaHAF surely ?

 

[Lynx]

Gee, you do love your Kes, don't you? She was so good and interesting, and so developed and universally loved that they eliminated the role and dumped the actress. What idiots! Wait. Here's an alternate theory: She was boring. Her relationship with Neelix didn't work, and IT was boring. Her relationship with Tuvok was boring, and a waste of Tuvok's screen time. They tried to re-invent the character twice, and she was still boring. They struggled to find things for her to do, and when they did, she was still boring. And because the idea is to attract viewers, not bore them, they dumped her, and replaced her with a character that was not boring.

And they would have done it to Beverly Crusher too, but luckily for Gates, her replacement sucked even more than she did.

My theory in this matter is definitely more close to the truth than your "alternate theory" which I do find utterly boring!

And the last sentence should have been: "And because the idea is to attract viewers at any cost, they used the sex factor and replaced her with a "sexy babe" with certain "attributes".

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Biggest one that comes to mind for me right now is "The Disease", where Starfleet suddenly has all these rules forbidding human-alien relations. Didn't anyone in the Voyager writing room watch the original Star Trek? Or even Next Gen??

It's not Starfleet's rule, it was the other planet's rule. Starfleet's rule is to obey other planets' rules.

There were three different characters named Julian Bashir. The first was annoying, the second was awesome, and the third made no sense.

 

[jmidnight_99]

My theory in this matter is definitely more close to the truth than your "alternate theory" which I do find utterly boring!

And the last sentence should have been: "And because the idea is to attract viewers at any cost, they used the sex factor and replaced her with a "sexy babe" with certain "attributes".

Which is an half-assed opinion, formed because you can't bear the truth. The character of Seven was intelligent, well written, well acted, multi-dimensional and gave the writers a lot to work with... much more than a pixie girl-child with absolutely no personality or charisma. Speaking in hushed tones and smiling isn't acting. The character was a dead end. You keep desperately clinging to Jeri Ryan's attractiveness as a means to keep your stupid argument afloat and if the character just swung her boobs around and contributed little else each episode, you might have a point. Instead, she brought something to every episode, and was 10 times the character as Kes ever was, and the fact you think Kes was a character worthy of this stupid debate makes my head spin. The audience didn't like her, she was boring, the writers didn't like her, so OUT SHE WENT. She was replaced by a character many times more interesting and an actress many times better, to keep the show going. This is fact. Get over it and act like an adult.

 

[jmidnight_99]

But in @jmidnight_99's universe, Sisko was a terrible character that the producers relegated to a minor role with the introduction of Lt. Commander Worf.

Sorry I never said that. I was talking about that terrible doctor, O'Brien and Jadzia. They were boring characters who were hard to write for, and their plot lines were used as mostly filler episodes and scenes to break things up thereafter.

 

[jmidnight_99]

@jmidnight_99, I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Bashir's role was "diminished" using only facts.

Factually, the character was featured in more episodes per season (and had more episodes centering on him) in 4-7 than 1-3. Indeed, statements were made by the producers expressing a desire to grow the character more in these later seasons (note that whether he actually did grow is an opinion, but that these statements were made is a fact).

I spent a little time plotting character focusand development for Voyager, pre-season 4 and post-season 4. After season 4, the Chakotay, Paris, Tuvok and Kim roles were reduced. Kim's fairly significantly. Janeway stayed about the same. B'Elanna was a toss up. I think her focus increased but It might have been the same. The doctor's role increased significantly. Seven had nearly as much development and focus as the doctor. Now, this isn't to say that the characters whose roles that were diminished were written out and disappeared. They had their focus episodes and focus scenes, just not as much as pre-season 4.

It's possible to measure screen time and character development, and it's possible to measure character focus, and it's possible to tell when a character is given dialogue or scenes that can really be spoken or performed by other more important characters.

I remember reading a story about the old "Taxi" sitcom. Jeff Conaway was a major PITA, and had a significant drug problem. Once when he missed some shows, the producers gave his dialog to the other characters. They were surprised to find out the Bobby character was adding no value, and was just reciting lines anyone of the other more important actors could say for the same effect. So they fired him.

Don't read to much into the Taxi analogy. My point is, It's not hard to tell when a character is just superfluous. Kes and Bashir became that way. Because no matter how much some might like them, there was not much to write about without retconning the characters (ironically, which they tried to do with both)

Bashir was terrible. Horrible. But I didn't expect the character to be replaced. They tried and failed to do that with Crusher who was also quite boring.

 

[jmidnight_99]

It would be Captain by this point.

Yes, but every time he was doing his usual condescending over-acting and said "CAPtain" I still heard "KahMANdah". Yuck.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Geez, enough already. Do you have ANY British friends?

 

[jmidnight_99]

Agree so so so much

Hey thanks.

 

[jmidnight_99]

^ Geez, enough already. Do you have ANY British friends?

Sure. Picard, Troi, and my GPS all have perfectly nice British accents. But not one of them ever said "KahMANdah" in a condescending tone to me. Well, maybe the GPS did. Once. But I fixed it.

 

[The Lonely Man]

Yes, but every time he was doing his usual condescending over-acting and said "CAPtain" I still heard "KahMANdah". Yuck.

Though you fast forwarded the scenes he was in ?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

And the last sentence should have been: "And because the idea is to attract viewers at any cost, they used the sex factor and replaced her with a "sexy babe" with certain "attributes".

No they used an interesting actor with an interesting story who happened to have boobs to replace a boring actor with a boring ass perfect pixie story who happened to have slightly less boobs.

7 of 9 is FAR MORE than boobs and if you want to reduce her to boobs you are fail.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Not sure if serious...

Bashier, O'Brian and Garak all had significant roles and story arcs throughout the rest of DS9, even after Worf was introduced. It continued to be an ensemble show with different characters getting the spotlight throughout the Dominion war.

As for the rest about him, it's you're opinion. I'll still watch Bashier over Worf or Seven or whomever.

BASHIR.
O'BRIEN

You see the names spelled correctly over and over in this thread, I think you like to ignore the facts, and do things your own way.

If you prefer the simpler, less complicated characters, by all means enjoy them. I'm not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't like. I'm trying to tell you both shows started to slip in the ratings and both got a boost 4 or so seasons in by adding more interesting characters to the cast. and giving less prominence to superfluous ones. and BTW, less means LESS not NONE.

The problem starts when people can't get over it, and think their favorite supporting character should have been the stars of the show. I suppose the producers could have just let the ratings slide until the shows were cancelled. Yes, on second thought they should have let "Kes" and "Harry Kim" carry Voyager. 5 more years of that surely would have been the right choice.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

BASHIR.
O'BRIEN

You see the names spelled correctly over and over in this thread, I think you like to ignore the facts, and do things your own way..

Why are people like this. What is the point.

OH I will fuck over your beloved character by my powers of MISS SPELL. She's an evel bitch.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

And the last sentence should have been: "And because the idea is to attract viewers at any cost, they used the sex factor and replaced her with a "sexy babe" with certain "attributes".

Seriously though it fucks me off that people hate on 7 of 9 because of her boobs. STOP fucking boob shaming 7 of 9 because her boobs are big, just fucking STOP.

Boobs come in a lot of sizes. I am sure you wouldn't boob shame a big boobed woman who just let them sag on out without perking them up with a bra, which is what 7 does and what 95% of women in her age group will do. But you get someone who doesn't care and just lets 'em hang out and they don't get boob shamed, they get slob shamed or if the are old enough age shamed.

KEEP CUP SIZE OUT OF YOUR FREAKING HATES ON 7 OF 9.

Because you know this is an actual size, a FEMALE SHAPE. You condemn via the stereotyped male eye and meanwhile women are just .. wtf man these are my boobs do I have to HIDE them so I don't get trashed for them?

This is bullshit.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure. Picard, Troi, and my GPS all have perfectly nice British accents. But not one of them ever said "KahMANdah" in a condescending tone to me. Well, maybe the GPS did. Once. But I fixed it.

Bashier never said it to me either.

Also, it's interesting to note that a character's wardrobe is off limits when someone finds it objectionable (Seven of Nine, T'Pol) but their manner of speaking is complete grounds for mockery and shaming. The goals-they are mysterious and movable as the ocean.

For the record-my opinion of Seven has everything to do with the fact that I don't enjoy her character. The fact that her outfit grates at me is just adding to my frustration. Regardless of how well written she was, I didn't enjoy her character. Sorry if that offends

BASHIR.
O'BRIEN

You see the names spelled correctly over and over in this thread, I think you like to ignore the facts, and do things your own way.

If you prefer the simpler, less complicated characters, by all means enjoy them. I'm not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't like. I'm trying to tell you both shows started to slip in the ratings and both got a boost 4 or so seasons in by adding more interesting characters to the cast. and giving less prominence to superfluous ones. and BTW, less means LESS not NONE.

The problem starts when people can't get over it, and think their favorite supporting character should have been the stars of the show. I suppose the producers could have just let the ratings slide until the shows were cancelled. Yes, on second thought they should have let "Kes" and "Harry Kim" carry Voyager. 5 more years of that surely would have been the right choice.

Get over what? The fact that I like certain characters? That I see potential in characters that went unexplored? Pardon me for having an opinion.

You're putting words and arguments in to my mouth without bothering to understand my rationale. So, I see no reason to continue on.

Also, I don't deliberately misspell. It's an autocorrect, usually from words being corrected for papers in school. So, the name of an author of a paper will take precedence in my autocorrect than a fictional character.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Dude. Deliberately misspelling characters names over and over means no one takes you seriously. You're obviously having a go. Blaming spellchecker is like Internet Angelfire era. Time to get a new excuse.

 

[fireproof78]

Dude. Deliberately misspelling characters names over and over means no one takes you seriously. You're obviously having a go. Blaming spellchecker is like Internet Angelfire era. Time to get a new excuse.

Not deliberate. Seriously.
Fixed it for me.