Voyager reset button

[Anwar]

This isn't even about hating one another. This is just about setting up a plot point and then doing very, very little with it. As a distinct identity the Maquis were basically gone by the third season, and the consequences of their identity in the first two seasons was minimal. Their biggest role was an excuse to include more deviant characters in the crew - the unorthodox, insubordiant bunch in "Learning Curve", psycopaths like Lon Suder or traitors like Jonas. When it comes down to it Seska played a more major role in the series arc and stories than the Maquis did.

The Maquis never really had a distinct identity beyond "people who fight the Cardassians and have to be thieves sometimes because they don't have Starfleet resources", certainly no real ideological differences between them and the Feds (yes yes, we can blather all we want about Eddington but he never outlines his differences between the Maquis and Feds either). So there was little point in going on about "crew tensions" when there were none to begin with that really warranted holding onto.

And of course Seska would play a bigger role, since she was a real villain.

If you want a comparison with DS9, here's one: The Bajoran Militia. They don't hate Starfleet, but the Bajoran Militia are a recognisably distinct group and the tension was exploited occasionally - and early in the Dominion War, it was crucial because Bajor was neutral yet the Federation was not. There are also some intellectual differences - Bajorans are by and large religious, while Starfleet is very secular. So one could get episodes like "In the Hands of the Prophets" which played on this distinction in a meaningful way. Lon Suder might kill people but he just did so 'cause he's crazy - he need not be Maquis at all, really - but Neela did so becuase of her Bajoran beliefs.

Because the Bajorans had their own planet that was their own separate place, with their own society culture and history apart from the Feds. There were REAL differences to exploit, while there weren't any with the Maquis (that made any sense).

Again you're dealing with an amorphous they, a bunch of straw-men. Even if such people exist, it's probably more productive to argue with people who think Voyager could have done better rather than feel Voyager could not work at all.

The people who think VOY could have done better think that "VOY done better" should have been them all immediately becoming bloodthirsty rogues. In other words, what they want was not Trek in the least. Those people should just go off and watch other shows and leave us alone.

DS9 is far from a flawless series

Ask around these boards and you'll see that DS9 is on a untouchable pedestal of utter perfection that no one is allowed to criticize.

BSG has also taken quite a bit of criticism over the years, particularly for how the later seasons and finale turned out.

Well, I never liked the show and my attempts at watching it at points only made me dislike it more. I was laughing at all the apologists and defenders of that horrible finale though.

Come now. That degree of character conflict didn't even happen in DS9. I'm sure Niners would have been happy with, well, the level of character conflict they got in DS9!

Which really wasn't all that much, since most of their conflict was from external sources. Kai Winn doesn't count because she was a villain. So basically they saw VOY as their way of living out the raw brutality they wished DS9 had and were PO'ed when the crew decided not to be animals.

 

[Cyke101]

We had a topic here that was about DS9 fans and Voyager, so I don't see how a counterpart topic wouldn't work in the DS9 board.

DS9 fans talking about Voyager on the Voyager board. Not DS9 talking about Voyager on the DS9 board. Similarly, you couldn't have Voyager threads dedicated to talking about DS9 here. Otherwise, what's the point of having separate boards?

As for going to both boards, if they're looking for ammunition to use they'd do it and they do.

Ammunition in terms of what entertains them in the show. Yes, the DS9 board has Paris fans, too! Not too long ago there were threads about what kind of Dominion war captain Janeway would make. Not everyone is that cynical. As was pointed out before, quite a few DS9 fans went to Godben's Voyager thread and gave even better ratings than he did. Why on Earth would they do that? To lull you into a false sense of security? Or because they actually and genuinely liked the show?

Open riots? They manage to keep it low-key enough in real life, they aren't suicidal.

Really? Then I should have a talk with the guy who bought the models of the USS Defiant *and* Voyager and tell him that he's got it all wrong. I should tell the guy who dressed up as Martok (eye-patch and all) to stop fraternizing with the Borg at the concession stand. Jem'Hadar and Kazon suits in one spot -- guess who's coming to dinner?

For that matter, somebody should've kicked Robert Picardo out of DS9's finale wrap up party. He's a spy gathering info, after all.

 

[Wicca who Wonta]

Niners hate Voyager for existing.

Well, I certainly don't. And I consider myself a Niner and a Voyager fan, even though I concede that both shows have flaws.

This is how I feel.

Me too! I love both Voyager and DS9 as well. And I have friends who love both shows too. It's an overgeneralization to claim that DS9 fans hate voyager!

 

[Cyke101]

Well, I certainly don't. And I consider myself a Niner and a Voyager fan, even though I concede that both shows have flaws.

This is how I feel.

Me too! I love both Voyager and DS9 as well. And I have friends who love both shows too. It's an overgeneralization to claim that all DS9 fans hate voyager!

Likewise, a gross generalization that all Voyager fans do or should hate DS9, too. Otherwise, all those DS9/VOY viewing parties that I've attended over the years were just one big masquerade!

 

[Anwar]

DS9 fans talking about Voyager on the Voyager board. Not DS9 talking about Voyager on the DS9 board. Similarly, you couldn't have Voyager threads dedicated to talking about DS9 here. Otherwise, what's the point of having separate boards?

Well, it was actually Kestral's idea. I just thought it might have some merit to it.

Ammunition in terms of what entertains them in the show. Yes, the DS9 board has Paris fans, too! Not too long ago there were threads about what kind of Dominion war captain Janeway would make. Not everyone is that cynical.

Uh-huh, and I'm supposed to assume that the Paris fans don't make posts like "Paris would have been a much better written and all-around better character if he wasn't on Voyager." and the Janeway thread isn't all "She'd be dead in 10 seconds if not sooner"?

As was pointed out before, quite a few DS9 fans went to Godben's Voyager thread and gave even better ratings than he did. Why on Earth would they do that? To lull you into a false sense of security? Or because they actually and genuinely liked the show?

1) They'd naturally be attracted to a self-described Hater's thread about Voyager

2) Given how the show ranked less around 4/10 for him there'd be the occasional anomalies that had their ratings be higher.

For that matter, somebody should've kicked Robert Picardo out of DS9's finale wrap up party. He's a spy gathering info, after all.

Nah, he just played both sides for cash and screentime before running to Stargate.

 

[Anwar]

This is how I feel.

Me too! I love both Voyager and DS9 as well. And I have friends who love both shows too. It's an overgeneralization to claim that all DS9 fans hate voyager!

Likewise, a gross generalization that all Voyager fans do or should hate DS9, too. Otherwise, all those DS9/VOY viewing parties that I've attended over the years were just one big masquerade!

No, they just aren't aware of what Niners really think of them and just keep them around to keep their suspicions low.

 

[Solarbaby]

Wow my first fully fledged thread flame war. I had heard of these by friends which is what put me off joining this board for so long.

Its so funny that people watch Trek and embrace its philosophies of diversity and then argue over which series is best. I would say that I am Star Trek fan as in the whole franchise. I grew up hooked on TNG and that was the best program I had ever watched. Then DS9 and VOY came along and took it to another level. I am a Niner as its so delicately labelled

There are lots of things I hate about VOY with a passion. But I still enjoy watching it. There's still so much to praise about it. The end of the series didn't feel like a complete circle, more like it plodded along. However its still quite enjoyable to sit back and watch for entertainment. Whereas I feel that DS9 makes you use your mind more to think about what you're watching.

The reset button has done a lot of damage to the show and lost fans along the way. It is very easy for Picard and Sisco to resupply themselves whenever they want. But it wasn't always like this. Look at early TNG when CGI couldnt produce affordable Dominion fleets and they had to scavange ships together (Redemption part 2) to block Sela's Romulan fleet. Starfleet didn't feel as big back then as when DS9 had a huge Federation armada in A Call to Arms. This was because they literally couldn't afford to make the effects. There's an obvious correlation between improved affordable CGI and the increased resources of Starfleet. So they made it appear the federation was stretched in resources and they didn't have a reset button to magically have more ships or supplies.

I don't see why the writers took a lazy way out of resupplying Voyager when it was convenient. They had TNG suffer from minimal resources they should have made it work on Voyager. The cost of making YOH as a 2 parter would have been so much cheaper stretching the damaged sets over a season. It would have saved money.

Anyways, if you look at Voyager as more of entertainment with sci fi stories its easy and enjoyable to watch. If you want more thought provoking realism and consistent continuity then you also have DS9( which also has its many flaws)

There's a place for both shows in my dvd collection just dont get me started on Enterprise

 

[Kegg]

The Maquis never really had a distinct identity beyond "people who fight the Cardassians and have to be thieves sometimes because they don't have Starfleet resources", certainly no real ideological differences between them and the Feds (yes yes, we can blather all we want about Eddington but he never outlines his differences between the Maquis and Feds either). So there was little point in going on about "crew tensions" when there were none to begin with that really warranted holding onto.

Yeah, I agree, but that's a problem with the premise. The Maquis were designed to give us a 'crew conflict' group but weren't distinct enough to really work - even still, they were deliberately sidelined. This is at the heart of the rather ridiculous compromise of having them wear Starfleet uniforms so long as they had little special Maquis rank marks.

Basically, aside from the excuse for some oddball guest stars, there seems little point to have had the Maquis at all. The build-up they got is completely disproportionate to their practical use in the series. So you see how I'd consider this an example of bad writing? A flawed concept then abandoned rather than executed?

The people who think VOY could have done better think that "VOY done better" should have been them all immediately becoming bloodthirsty rogues.

Two points:

1. Talk to me, not your straw-men. I said this in my previous post, reread that section as to why.

2. This statement is demonstately false. Yoo-hoo? I'm here, I say I would have liked Voyager done better, and I didn't mean that by turning them into villainous murders. Since DS9 is a frequent barometer here, I wouldn't want the characters to be guilty of anything more than, again, the DS9 principals were at their worst. That does push us into some shades of grey but they were all far from villans.

Ask around these boards and you'll see that DS9 is on a untouchable pedestal of utter perfection that no one is allowed to criticize.

I've been coming on and off to these boards for a long time, and no, that's never been my impression of DS9 fandom. Ever. Sometimes they criticized it for the same reasons that I wouldn't quite agree with - they wanted more Dominion War episodes, they wanted the show to be even darker, they wanted no Ferengi episodes, or they didn't like Worf - or stuff I did agree with, like, again, how Dukat was treated in the seventh season. I don't see a lot of defenders of Dukat the wannabe-Bajoran mystic.

Also, go to DS9 forum, ask their opinion of "Profit & Lace" and we'll see how this pedestal theory works out for you.

Come now. That degree of character conflict didn't even happen in DS9. I'm sure Niners would have been happy with, well, the level of character conflict they got in DS9!

Which really wasn't all that much, since most of their conflict was from external sources.

The same can be said of most space operas in general, because even if your crew is acrominous to each other they tend not to want to kill each other as badly as the aliens outside do. But it's the difference between a happy ship of like-minded folk and a bunch of guys thrown together for conveinence's sake. Voyager's premise suggests the latter, then ignores the idea and gives us the former. It'd be like if the characters on Farscape acted just like the characters on Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[Cyke101]

Ammunition in terms of what entertains them in the show. Yes, the DS9 board has Paris fans, too! Not too long ago there were threads about what kind of Dominion war captain Janeway would make. Not everyone is that cynical.

Uh-huh, and I'm supposed to assume that the Paris fans don't make posts like "Paris would have been a much better written and all-around better character if he wasn't on Voyager." and the Janeway thread isn't all "She'd be dead in 10 seconds if not sooner"?

I think you and I have been reading distinctly different posts.

As was pointed out before, quite a few DS9 fans went to Godben's Voyager thread and gave even better ratings than he did. Why on Earth would they do that? To lull you into a false sense of security? Or because they actually and genuinely liked the show?

1) They'd naturally be attracted to a self-described Hater's thread about Voyager

2) Given how the show ranked less around 4/10 for him there'd be the occasional anomalies that had their ratings be higher.

Yes, naturally attracted to a thread where they end up defending those episodes, too. But it was closer to 5/10, which isn't exactly hating, more like indifference, hence the need to change the thread title.

No, it turns out that GodBen is a DS9 fan who has a lower opinion of the show than other DS9 fans, who are closer to rating it more as a 6/10 or 7/10.

And that says nothing of the Voyager fans who themselves were naturally drawn into the thread and had similar opinions as DS9 fans in addition to divergent opinions, but discussed the show in a largely civil and non-accusatory way. If everyone in there accused everyone else of being a hater (like you claim), the thread would have been closed before it reached Season 2.

But then again, anything less than 10/10 makes one a hater?

For that matter, somebody should've kicked Robert Picardo out of DS9's finale wrap up party. He's a spy gathering info, after all.

Nah, he just played both sides for cash and screentime before running to Stargate.

And not because he's a genuinely nice guy who keeps promoting the franchise.

 

[Anwar]

Basically, aside from the excuse for some oddball guest stars, there seems little point to have had the Maquis at all. The build-up they got is completely disproportionate to their practical use in the series. So you see how I'd consider this an example of bad writing? A flawed concept then abandoned rather than executed?

A flawed concept they realized was flawed, then discarded rather than waste anymore time on.

[quote[
2. This statement is demonstately false. Yoo-hoo? I'm here, I say I would have liked Voyager done better, and I didn't mean that by turning them into villainous murders. Since DS9 is a frequent barometer here, I wouldn't want the characters to be guilty of anything more than, again, the DS9 principals were at their worst. That does push us into some shades of grey but they were all far from villans.[/quote]

And I'm saying that the dislike for VOY was so great that if they had just made them like the DS9 cast then the complaint would be "They just caved in and made the characters like the DS9 cast instead of being more original.", and the DS9 cast got away with a lot of stuff that no one minded because of the double standard between the shows while if the VOY cast pulled the same everyone would complain over them not being punished.

I've been coming on and off to these boards for a long time, and no, that's never been my impression of DS9 fandom. Ever. Sometimes they criticized it for the same reasons that I wouldn't quite agree with - they wanted more Dominion War episodes, they wanted the show to be even darker, they wanted no Ferengi episodes, or they didn't like Worf - or stuff I did agree with, like, again, how Dukat was treated in the seventh season. I don't see a lot of defenders of Dukat the wannabe-Bajoran mystic.

When they complain over more of the Dominion War and to increase the darkness, that isn't a complaint. It's just "take a good thing and make it better", and they are upset that the final battle between Dukat and Sisko wasn't longer. Those aren't real complaints.

The same can be said of most space operas in general, because even if your crew is acrominous to each other they tend not to want to kill each other as badly as the aliens outside do. But it's the difference between a happy ship of like-minded folk and a bunch of guys thrown together for conveinence's sake. Voyager's premise suggests the latter, then ignores the idea and gives us the former. It'd be like if the characters on Farscape acted just like the characters on Star Trek: The Next Generation.

The characters on Farscape had genuine reasons for hating and wanting to kill one another, that is fundamentally different from VOY where I've already shown that the crews had little reason to be against one another.

 

[Wicca who Wonta]

Its so funny that people watch Trek and embrace its philosophies of diversity and then argue over which series is best.

I agree! And I've personally never understood the hate some people feel for various trek issues. I personally don't like Enterprise and I don't think TNG is very interesting, which is why I choose not to watch those shows. I know that others might love those shows for the same reason I don't watch them. That's the beauty of a diverse society. Life is too short for hate.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, naturally attracted to a thread where they end up defending those episodes, too.

No, it turns out that GodBen is a DS9 fan who has a lower opinion of the show than other DS9 fans, who are closer to rating it more as a 6/10 or 7/10.

Like I said, anomalies against the overall ratings.

And that says nothing of the Voyager fans who themselves were naturally drawn into the thread and had similar opinions as DS9 fans in addition to divergent opinions, but discussed the show in a largely civil and non-accusatory way.

Voyager fans were naturally drawn to defend the show, and they just tried to mask their defense of it in a way to not make the Niners go nuts at them for doing so. Me? I've long since given up trying to reason with them so I don't bother masking anything.

But then again, anything less than 10/10 makes one a hater?

Nah, I'd go for 6/10 and that's pushing it.

And not because he's a genuinely nice guy who keeps promoting the franchise.

I should have put a smiley there to show I was kidding.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Ask around these boards and you'll see that DS9 is on a untouchable pedestal of utter perfection that no one is allowed to criticize.

No it isn't! I very much doubt that even the most dedicated DS9 fan on these boards would say the show was perfect. There have been whole threads about what people don't like about DS9.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that DS9 fans can't really like Voyager. I don't think this will tally with the experience of many of us. Of course these shows are different, but they're still very obviously part of the Star Trek franchise - for better or for worse they feel closer to each other than to, say, Doctor Who or Babylon 5. It's only natural that many of us should watch and like both shows. Maybe some DS9 fans (and Voyager fans) just set out to dislike the other show for reasons only they understand, but most of us are fans of science fiction TV and we want to find as much entertaining stuff to watch as possible.

 

[kimc]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ENOUGH OF THE DS9 VS VOYAGER NONSENSE!!!!

Seriously guys, these pissing contests have got to stop. Constructive crticism is welcome on this forum. Posting nothing but "Voyager sucks" is not because it's trolling and you will get warned.

For those who have forgotten the original topic is the reset button. Personally, I don't see the issue as a reset button so much as the writers in later years relied too heavily on two crutches - borg and time travel. Heck, in the finale they even put both in! Unfortunately, there are only so many ways to tell the same story which is why these episodes can often feel like a "reset". That's just my opinion for whatever it's worth...

 

[Kegg]

A flawed concept they realized was flawed, then discarded rather than waste anymore time on.

Then they should have come up with a better concept to begin with or try to make the flawed one work. Piller blamed Network interference for the downplay of the Maquis and arced storylines, IIRC, but I'd have to look that up.

In a pinch, DS9 threw in an ideological justification for the Maquis to hate the Federation, when Eddington compares them to the Borg. It's not much, but it's something and the Maquis admittedly were never a big deal on this show. They could have developed the Maquis in the series in such a way that they had a legitimate point of difference with the Voyager crew, made them into the conflict group they were designed to be.

And I'm saying that the dislike for VOY was so great that if they had just made them like the DS9 cast then the complaint would be "They just caved in and made the characters like the DS9 cast instead of being more original.",

Are you reading me at all? This would be the third time I'd ask you to respond to me and not to repeat arguments used by other people.

Anyway, more conflict =/= equal to DS9. There are admittedly some obvious intended parallels to DS9 (Tuvok/Neelix wants to be Odo/Quark, for example) but Maquis and Starfleet arguing over the best way to run the ship wouldn't be comparable to what we got.

When they complain over more of the Dominion War and to increase the darkness, that isn't a complaint. It's just "take a good thing and make it better", and they are upset that the final battle between Dukat and Sisko wasn't longer. Those aren't real complaints.

The first part of this is true, the second part is not. Their problem - and mine - is not that the Sisko/Dukat fight in the finale is longer. Frankly I think it's pretty silly as it is. I have a problem with the fight istelf and the direction the Dukat character took after "Waltz", and this does appear to be common among Niners.

The characters on Farscape had genuine reasons for hating and wanting to kill one another, that is fundamentally different from VOY where I've already shown that the crews had little reason to be against one another.

Actually, let's explore this.

In the first season, the only character who would have a good reason to want to kill someone else in the crew and vice versa was Aeryn. She was an ex-Peacekeeper - and not by choice - and the aliens onboard were all escaped prisoners fleeing the Peacekeepers. Keeping her around was sort of by conveinence, having someone who knew something about Peacekeeper tactics and ships and such comes in handy when you're escaping them.

However, the character conflict in the first season wasn't just Aeryn versus the rest of the crew. They were all at each other's throats to varying degrees over the course of that year - even the normally tranquil Zhaan could wind up scheming against other characters "DNA Mad Scientist", for example. Heck, as early as the second episode in the series we have D'Argo begrudingly admit he doesn't really want to see Aeryn die.

By contrast, the Voyager crew are made up of two groups who were hostile to one another. Luxans and Hynerians weren't in a shooting war, but the Maquis and Federation were, however relatively low-key their conflict. Right there there's more basis for wanting to kill each other then the Farscape folk had.

See what I'm driving at here? Character conflict does not mean you want to or have a reason to kill somebody. You just don't get along for whatever reason, you have arguments and bitch at each other and maybe have differing agendas in given circumstances. When I say I wanted to see the conflict realized, that doesn't mean I wanted the Maquis trying to take over the ship all the time, I would have liked to see the relationship as what it sort of is in concept - an alliance of conveinence between two previously hostile groups who need to work together for their own mutual benefit. Trust, if it comes at all, comes slowly - as it did for the 'Scapers, who did grow into a team even if they continued to bicker at each other right into their final TV movie.

 

[Cyke101]

I should have put a smiley there to show I was kidding.

With the way you keep automatically labeling/blaming all the fans of one show as haters of another show ad nauseum, and your utter refusal to believe that someone who likes VOY can like DS9 and vice versa, I don't know how to take anything you say seriously anymore. So much for IDIC.

I'm done here and I'm going to cleanse my palatte with both my DS9 and VOY DVDs. Of course, I can't put them in the same room or else they'll annihilate each other like matter/anti-matter, but I'll take that risk, thanks.

 

[Michael]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ENOUGH OF THE DS9 VS VOYAGER NONSENSE!!!!

Seriously guys, these pissing contests have got to stop. Constructive crticism is welcome on this forum. Posting nothing but "Voyager sucks" is not because it's trolling and you will get warned.

Sorry, kimc, I hardly ever disagree with anything you say, but where in this thread does anyone say "Voyager sucks" or something to that effect? Isn't this ongoing discussion actually about how Voyager doesn't suck; even in the eyes of many Deep Space Nine fans? I'm confused.

 

[kimc]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ENOUGH OF THE DS9 VS VOYAGER NONSENSE!!!!

Seriously guys, these pissing contests have got to stop. Constructive crticism is welcome on this forum. Posting nothing but "Voyager sucks" is not because it's trolling and you will get warned.

Sorry, kimc, I hardly ever disagree with anything you say, but where in this thread does anyone say "Voyager sucks" or something to that effect? Isn't this ongoing discussion actually about how Voyager doesn't suck; even in the eyes of many Deep Space Nine fans? I'm confused.

Actually I thought this was about the Voyager "reset button" but it seems to have dragged into a DS9 vs Voyager debate. The point I was trying to make is that we're not interested in any ongoing personal feuds here. Constructive criticism is welcome - trolling is not. Neither are personal comments about other posters which some have been made here.

Feel free to pm with questions but let's get the this thread back onto topic otherwise I'll be forced to close it. Thanks.

 

[Anwar]

Then they should have come up with a better concept to begin with or try to make the flawed one work. Piller blamed Network interference for the downplay of the Maquis and arced storylines, IIRC, but I'd have to look that up.

In a pinch, DS9 threw in an ideological justification for the Maquis to hate the Federation, when Eddington compares them to the Borg. It's not much, but it's something and the Maquis admittedly were never a big deal on this show. They could have developed the Maquis in the series in such a way that they had a legitimate point of difference with the Voyager crew, made them into the conflict group they were designed to be.

Eddington's reasonings were nonsense, particularly that Borg comparison. No you delusional twat the Feds are NOT the Borg, when they go around destroying civilizations and turning the survivors into mindless drones then maybe you have a point.

Honestly, it would have worked so much more if the other crew had been Romulans or something (or Cardassians, but they had DS9 for screentime).

The first part of this is true, the second part is not. Their problem - and mine - is not that the Sisko/Dukat fight in the finale is longer. Frankly I think it's pretty silly as it is. I have a problem with the fight istelf and the direction the Dukat character took after "Waltz", and this does appear to be common among Niners.

Well, I always saw Dukat as an evil man no matter what he did so I had no problem with him just embracing his true nature after losing all of his prestige and stuff. Niners just can't get over the fact that Dukat was pure evil because they were too in awe of his presence, but I was unaffected by this particular Devil's charm.

By contrast, the Voyager crew are made up of two groups who were hostile to one another. Luxans and Hynerians weren't in a shooting war, but the Maquis and Federation were, however relatively low-key their conflict. Right there there's more basis for wanting to kill each other then the Farscape folk had.

The Maquis/Fed conflicts were only when the Maquis would attack the Feds, their real enemy were Cardassians. Whenever the Fleeters went after them it was due to their own actions, meaning that there really was no true animosity between them. Like I said, if the other ship had been Romulans who historically HAVE had wars and conflict with the Feds, as well as their own separate culture and ideology THEN the conflict makes more sense.

See what I'm driving at here? Character conflict does not mean you want to or have a reason to kill somebody.

Too bad general consescus is that for VOY they WOULD have to be trying to kill one another all the time.

When I say I wanted to see the conflict realized, that doesn't mean I wanted the Maquis trying to take over the ship all the time, I would have liked to see the relationship as what it sort of is in concept - an alliance of conveinence between two previously hostile groups who need to work together for their own mutual benefit. Trust, if it comes at all, comes slowly - as it did for the 'Scapers, who did grow into a team even if they continued to bicker at each other right into their final TV movie.

Trust came less than halfway through the first season for most of the Scapers, difference being just who trusted who. They didn't ALL start to trust each other until later one but less than halfway through the first season the bonds of trust that mattered were already there.

And also with Scape they only had to worry about dealing with 5 or so characters the whole time since the ship didn't need a crew, so it was easier to focus on what conflicts and relationships there were. With VOY another complaint would be that we didn't see every single freaking person on the ship, which is just ridiculous.

 

[Michael]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ENOUGH OF THE DS9 VS VOYAGER NONSENSE!!!!

Seriously guys, these pissing contests have got to stop. Constructive crticism is welcome on this forum. Posting nothing but "Voyager sucks" is not because it's trolling and you will get warned.

Sorry, kimc, I hardly ever disagree with anything you say, but where in this thread does anyone say "Voyager sucks" or something to that effect? Isn't this ongoing discussion actually about how Voyager doesn't suck; even in the eyes of many Deep Space Nine fans? I'm confused.

Actually I thought this was about the Voyager "reset button" but it seems to have dragged into a DS9 vs Voyager debate. The point I was trying to make is that we're not interested in any ongoing personal feuds here. Constructive criticism is welcome - trolling is not. Neither are personal comments about other posters which some have been made here.

Feel free to pm with questions but let's get the this thread back onto topic otherwise I'll be forced to close it. Thanks.

Okay, thanks for the clarification, boss.