Voyager Relaunch question

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm reading the threads froot posted and I'm finding it pretty hard to choke down Beyer's reasoning of her being completely in favor of Janeway's death. Apparently this opened up loads of possible storylines with the rest of the VOY crew and lots of great new characters could be written. Yeah.. well let me just say that two books of Chakotay sobbing and everyone else gripped with angst over how they somehow failed Janeway or failed Chakotay by not noticing he was in love with her is NOT exciting character development. Chakotay is awful in these books IMHO, they really stripped him of any dignity and it went on for far too long.

Character development my ass.

And as to great new characters.. as I've said before I do like Eden BUT.. do readers actually clamor for new characters? Do they seek out treklit and flip through a book getting all excited to see NEW characters? I highly doubt it. A lot of new characters are annoying (T'lana) or forgettable, it seems like you often have subpar writers struggling to create exciting new characters from scratch and it's pretty hit and miss how well they do it. If you wanted to grow the treklit buying audience it's not by tempting them in with new characters, it's because they want to know what happens to Ezri post season 7 or someone else they love (I'm looking at a typhon pact cover on my desk as I type this).

Destiny was a great series but I'm starting to feel that these novels tying in every possible crew are getting a bit frayed and convoluted. You couldn't even jump in and start reading treklit with the latest book, you have to go back quite a few books in the series to make any sense of it. I'd love it if they wrapped some things up and then returned to smaller groups of books, like the Worlds of DS9 or the IKS Gorkon series.

 

[DonIago]

If the new character is compelling I'll happily see where they go. If not, I won't... I seem to recall there were issues behind the scenes that impacted the development of the new TNG characters...or maybe I made that up. I found the idea of a Vulcan counselor (and one with an interest in Worf) rather interesting, but obviously once she mutinied there was really no going back. At least she realized the error of her ways in retrospect.

Leybenzon just drove me up the wall...I don't know what the writers were trying to do with him, but unless the answer is "annoy us" they failed. I did pick up inklings of something going on with him and Kadohata though. If written well that might have been a good read.

Much like the movie trilogy, I think one issue is that the pre-Destiny books introduced these characters, but by the time Destiny kicks in most of them have already become moot points. I'm willing to be patient and give characters a few books to see whether they evolve (consider if we judged all Trek characters based on their Season 1 depictions), but when they're taken out of the field of play it's almost unfair to them.

I haven't read post-Destiny yet (I backtracked to DS9 and am on Warpath currently), but I don't think the post-Destiny novels are supposed to be big crossovers beyond maybe a couple of characters doing so in a way that makes sense based on the stories?

I've never read a Voyager novel, so unfortunately I'm not in a position to comment on essentially anything going on in that corner of the Trek universe.

 

[Saito S]

Re: the blow-ups over Janeway's death over in the 'Lit forum... I posted in a couple of them (there were like... five different ones over the course of a few years, it was kind of insane. ). I tried to keep a level head; I hope I succeeded. But, in all fairness, in the threads I read through and/or participated in, there were level-headed, reasonable people, and irrational, needlessly snippy, condescending people on BOTH sides of the issue. ("Sides" in this case being defined very broadly as simply "Ok with the fact that Janeway died" and "Not ok with it." The complexities of how she died and how good/bad BD was overall, etc etc. I'm not including at the moment when defining the "sides" that debated in those threads). Really, both sides seemed to have both stripes in equal numbers. Yes, there were people who were significantly less than polite to Janeway fans, but there were also people insulting the authors who tried to defend the decision and getting on people who were just ok with it pretty harshly. Following a long post I made in one such thread, someone responded by subtly implying with that I must have some kind of fascination with death if I'm defending the decision to kill a main show character.

Personally, I occupy the middle ground. I'm obviously not a "Janeway fan", though I did like the character at times (and would have liked her a lot more if the writing had been different; certainly my problems with her have nothing to do with either the concept of the character, nor the performance by Mulgrew). I'm ok with the death, and with main character death in general, as long as it is both not overdone, and always handled with care... and the latter wasn't really the case here, frankly. While I still don't think there's much merit to the conspiracy theory, giving the assignment to PAD was a stupid thing to do.

BD - As an OTT story where the bulk of it is probably best forgotten, it's not bad. Nobody's actually explained -how- Janeway was OOC (I'd argue that is more true for some of the Enterprise crew in any case), and since we're not clear on the behind-the-scenes, I'm not going to assign blame except that -if- PAD had issues with Janeway then assigning this story to him was probably a questionable decision. But hey, it's nowhere near the worst Trek book ever (if you think it is I suggest reading more of the standalone early TNG stories), and as with Trek '09 at least it wasn't afraid to shake up the status quo. Making an issue of the fact that it says TNG on the cover is, -to me-, a bit silly

Yeah, I don't know for certain myself on PAD disliking Janeway. Come to think of it, is anyone sure? Did it ever move past a rumor?
And no, definitely not the worst Trek book ever. As you said, those early standalone TNG books........
And not even my least favorite PAD book, personally. I may not think BD is very good, but at least I was able to finish it.

I'm reading the threads froot posted and I'm finding it pretty hard to choke down Beyer's reasoning of her being completely in favor of Janeway's death. Apparently this opened up loads of possible storylines with the rest of the VOY crew and lots of great new characters could be written.

As I said, I haven't read any actual VOY books, so I can't comment too directly on the stories themselves... but as a writer (well, aspiring, anyway ), I tend to believe her. Nothing more than my instinct, I suppose, but I've made that decision myself in my own stories; killing a main, one you might even like, is tough, but sometimes, you cannot ignore the story ideas that are springing up around it.

And as to great new characters.. as I've said before I do like Eden BUT.. do readers actually clamor for new characters? Do they seek out treklit and flip through a book getting all excited to see NEW characters? I highly doubt it.

*raises hand*
Ok, full disclosure: I didn't start out reading the DS9R or the pre-destiny stuff thinking "Let's see what awesome new characters there are in here!" It's as you said, to find out what was happening after the shows (and - due to when I started reading all these, which was just a couple years ago, it was also to find out what this "Destiny" thing was all about; I started reading so I could get the backstory before reading Destiny itself once my interest had been piqued). But, that said, if you ask me now, looking back on it... in all honesty, I care about Prynn Tenmei, Miranda Kadohata, Shar, and others I'm simply forgetting about at the moment just as much as I do anyone from the shows.

To be fair, though, there are also original characters I'm very "meh" on. Titan has left me pretty disinterested (which is weird! A new class of deep-space explorer captained by one of my favorite TNG characters with a spectacularly diverse crew. That's a recipe for awesome, but somehow... ), and part of that is because I find the originals on the ship to be rather up and down. Some of them are interesting, but a lot of them are pretty boring IMO. And there's a sense sometimes, too, with that series, that with so many characters showing up (and some of them just feel like "Titan is supposed to be diverse! We need to show more races! Quick, add another character!"), a lot of them are just THERE.

Leybenzon just drove me up the wall...I don't know what the writers were trying to do with him, but unless the answer is "annoy us" they failed. I did pick up inklings of something going on with him and Kadohata though. If written well that might have been a good read.

Ugh, me too. The ending of "Greater than the Sum"... well, let's just say I wasn't exactly heartbroken.

Much like the movie trilogy, I think one issue is that the pre-Destiny books introduced these characters, but by the time Destiny kicks in most of them have already become moot points. I'm willing to be patient and give characters a few books to see whether they evolve (consider if we judged all Trek characters based on their Season 1 depictions), but when they're taken out of the field of play it's almost unfair to them.

Granted, I actually haven't read THAT many of the "modern" Trek books outside the DS9 relaunch, but I don't really agree with this. The original characters on Aventine and Enterprise felt well-used during Destiny, and also during GTtS in the Enterprise' case. As FOR the DS9 R... well, they didn't really show up much for Destiny outside of Bowers (who I do like).

I haven't read post-Destiny yet (I backtracked to DS9 and am on Warpath currently), but I don't think the post-Destiny novels are supposed to be big crossovers beyond maybe a couple of characters doing so in a way that makes sense based on the stories?

Correct, at least as far as "Losing the Peace" and "A Singular Destiny" are concerned. Both are highly recommended, as well. Haven't read any of the Typhon Pact books yet.

I've never read a Voyager novel, so unfortunately I'm not in a position to comment on essentially anything going on in that corner of the Trek universe.

Same here.

Another day, another needlessly huge post...

 

[Lynx]

Look at all the novels of other series. Is the captain missing? Has Kirk disappeared from all TOS books after his death in Generations (whether Shatner writes the books or not)? Is Picard around? Sisko? Hasn't Trip been "restored" to the Enterprise relaunch--in spite of the fact that his death is "canon"?

Killing off a major character is a mistake that can be easily corrected. If Sisko was "supposed" to come back, then the same can be said for Janeway, who was "rescued" by Lady Q.

I agree with the posters who point out that new readers to the Voyager relaunch are not going to care at all about a new captain or characters, no matter how well they are written. TNG readers want to read about TNG characters. DS9 readers want to read about DS9 characters. Same for Voyager.

To sell more books, bring back Janeway. It's a no-brainer.

But this isn't really the question I asked. What I wondered was whether (and how well) Breyer was able to "repair" the OOC Janeway from Before Dishonor. Apparently she did the best she could.

I agree with this!

The point of reading a Voyager book is to read about the Voyager characters, not to see them being destroyed or killed of and replaced by characters who aren't interesting for Voyager fans.

When I read a Voyager book, I want to read about Janeway, Kes, Chakotay and the others from the series.

If those in charge of the relaunch wants drama by killing of the main characters, why can't they leave Voyager alone and instead use their skill and creativity to start a new series with a new ship. Then they could create new characters which they can kill off at random for the sake of drama. Why do they have to dabble with the Voyager characters.

froot wrote:

I started that. I hope you know we're just farting around and joking. :O Actually going out and burning books of any kind, no matter how poopy they may be, is creepy Fahrenheit 451 territory. No one should ever stop or destroy literature based on personal opinions.

In this I also agree. Burning books is a barbaric act.

I was once very close to destroy a Star Trek book (Strange New World, volume 4) because of a horrible story in that book which annoyed me a lot. But instead I sold it on Ebay for a symbolic sum. Definitely a better choice.

 

[DonIago]

Saito - It sounds like we're mostly on the same page actually. Yay, someone who agrees with me.

In reference to characters becoming moot points pre-Destiny I was largely referring to the TNG characters. Kadohata gets stuff to do, but T'Lana is reduced to a cameo (not unrealistic under the circumstances) and obviously Leybenzon's part has already been performed. The characters -introduced- in GTTS stick around, but that's the book immediately pre-Destiny. I would have liked to see characters introduced in Resistance still be around for the big finish. Really, when Resistance brought in Nave and Battaglia and actually spent time on them I thought they might actually, you know, matter.

No complaints about...well, pretty much anyone else in Destiny. I didn't really understand the Riker-Troi issues, but I've never been pregnant either...but have certainly seen people I knew who became pregnant turn into pod people.

The plight of the Columbia folks just plain sucked (I'd consider that one form of Hell myself) and aside from missing Shar and wondering WTH happened to Taran'atar (again, reading Warpath now, no spoilers please!) I think the DS9R folks are doing pretty well for themselves. No complaints about the characters here.

I have to admit one of my personal peeves with Titan is that it isn't focusing on the characters I personally found most interesting. There was the guy with the crush on Keru who I guess transferred off the ship (sigh). I also like...Dakal, I think his name is. There was also the female Ferengi. At this point I'd be content to see Melora and Ra-Havreii and Tuvok fade to the background for a bit. Personally I like Ree, but I admit he's gotten a decent amount of story as well so far. Might be nice to see Ogawa get a bit more to do. I've liked her ever since The Game.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

The plight of the Columbia folks just plain sucked (I'd consider that one form of Hell myself) and aside from missing Shar and wondering WTH happened to Taran'atar (again, reading Warpath now, no spoilers please!) I think the DS9R folks are doing pretty well for themselves. No complaints about the characters here.

The DS9 Relaunch is one of the better streams of storytelling...up until [REDACTED].

I have to admit one of my personal peeves with Titan is that it isn't focusing on the characters I personally found most interesting. There was the guy with the crush on Keru who I guess transferred off the ship (sigh). I also like...Dakal, I think his name is. There was also the female Ferengi. At this point I'd be content to see Melora and Ra-Havreii and Tuvok fade to the background for a bit. Personally I like Ree, but I admit he's gotten a decent amount of story as well so far. Might be nice to see Ogawa get a bit more to do. I've liked her ever since The Game.

Yeah, that's one of the complaints I have as well. I really got into Zurin Dakal, the Cardassian (one of the characters with the most potential, I think) as well as Bralik, who also should be mentioned more (especially her backstory!)

And I miss Ogawa, and the family with the newborn, Totyarguil.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Doesn't Ogawa

Spoiler: the big Borg war

die? I'm thinking her name was on the casualty lists in one book.

And Melora... ::shudder::

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Doesn't Ogawa

Spoiler: the big Borg war

die? I'm thinking her name was on the casualty lists in one book.

I don't think so...

And Melora... ::shudder::

Not a Pazlar fan?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Doesn't Ogawa

Spoiler: the big Borg war

die? I'm thinking her name was on the casualty lists in one book.

I don't think so...

And Melora... ::shudder::

Not a Pazlar fan?

Okay I just looked her up and it seems I was mistaken. Maybe I just got mixed up as to what ship she was on. I like her a lot.

And no.. no.. no Melora.

I make a bad girl, I just get tired of overly sensitive characters.

 

[DonIago]

I liked her subplot in Destiny, but between that and the Titan books she's received enough coverage for the time-being, and I'd rather learn more about other Titan crewmembers at this point.

I'm somewhat biased as far as it goes, but I'd like to see Keru have a life outside his job again.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Keru has a life?

 

[AuntKate]

I'm sure that most Trek writers would love to have their own ships and crews, and some have managed to do just that in related novel series, like NF. However, in the relaunches, we want the original crews. A reader who is intrigued by the series and picks up a novel for the first time (and I assume PB wants to increase readership) will not be pleased to find new characters instead of those on the tube.

I understand that Beyer's books (especially Full Circle) are some sort of emotional roller coaster--which I had always believed were avoided by Trek writers as being too "romancy." I guess the exception doesn't prove the rule in this case.

Question: if the angst over Janeway's death sold well, maybe it is because people like reading about her and her crew?

 

[DonIago]

Given that we're following a Starfleet crew, I thnk it would feel increasingly artificial if the major players never changed, especially as it's been at least seven years on tv (unless you're talking Enterprise or TOS). The reality is that in the line of work these people are in crew changes happen naturally.

That being said, I think there's always room for stories set earlier than the bulk of the current ones that detail events happening between episodes of the series.

It could be argued that if the angst over Janeway's death sold well, maybe it is because people like seeing how the crew reacts and what the repercussions will be...