Voyager Hate

[JeffinOakland]

Yeah, I hear you. IMO, Voyager doesn't really work until it consciously decides to be TNG 1.5 in the 4th season with the addition of 7 of 9 and the exit of Kes along with the decision to focus mainly on 7 of 9, The Dr. and Janeway. From then on, the series is fairly enjoyable if you liked TNG.

DS9 is my favorite ST series. It is the only ST that present an ongoing story arc and the only series to make the effort to fully integrate recurring characters into the overall story. It also has the most interesting characters overall. It is the darkest of the series filled with moral ambiguity and the horrors of war and impossible decisions (which is why Roddenberry purists hate it. They argue its not "real" ST). I strongly recommend watching the 1st season all the way through.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Lots of stuff mentioned here already I agree with, but I also feel it just had some very, very poorly conceived characters and poor acting to boot.

Actually, most of the characters on Voyager were pretty good characters played by good actors. .

Well, that's your opinion of course but I felt the acting was on the whole very poor.

 

[Tosk]

I'm in the middle...I feel like it was a mixed bag.

 

[Relayer1]

I'm certainly in the mainly poor characters played by poor actors camp, with the exception of Robert Picardo who was brilliant and Ethan Phillips who made the best of a bad job.

 

[Anwar]

I'm certainly in the mainly poor characters played by poor actors camp, with the exception of Robert Picardo who was brilliant and Ethan Phillips who made the best of a bad job.

And in the hand of poor actors who had no chemistry, Kirk Spock and McCoy would be badly thought of by now.

So what's your point?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It's not just that. The Maquis and Feds weren't even real enemies. They preferred not to have to fight if they could avoid it and their only major point of contention was the DMZ thing.

In Voyager, the DMZ was now decades away as were the Cardassians. The only things that kept them fighting were no longer present and aside from that they had no other major differences.

Whatever conflict they had with one another was never going to last long, and they didn't have much to fight over in the DQ to begin with.

They'd have been better off having the "second crew" be DQ aliens, or Romulans, or people with REAL differences with the Feds.

The Federation and the Maquis weren't enemies but they had some pretty major differences in terms of values. Only the Maquis accepted Federation values almost immediately. The last time the differences really came up are when they wanted to illegally trade for the super-transporter. Then they were referenced in Worst Case Scenario only through 'These are the differences we were afraid we would have but never did'.

It shouldn't have gone to the extreme of open rebellion of Maquis against the Federation since they are clearly in a situation where they are best off working together. But there should have been more resistance to accepting Federation values, more negotiation on uniform dress codes and things like that.

Chakotay should have been a Michael Eddington type, somebody who's extremely vocal about his values and willing to debate and defend them, but also rational enough to know they were in a situation where they have to work together peacefully.

 

[Anwar]

[

The Federation and the Maquis weren't enemies but they had some pretty major differences in terms of values.

Like what?

Only the Maquis accepted Federation values almost immediately.

For the most part the Maquis and Fed values were one and the same. They disagreed over the matter of ONE foreign policy but that was it.

But there should have been more resistance to accepting Federation values, more negotiation on uniform dress codes and things like that.

I seriously doubt the Feds on Voyager really cared all that much over a strict dress code. The only time anyone ever used the dress code thing (Riker vs Ro Laren) it was clear he was just being a jerk.

This is a conceptual problem, they just weren't that different.

Chakotay should have been a Michael Eddington type, somebody who's extremely vocal about his values and willing to debate and defend them, but also rational enough to know they were in a situation where they have to work together peacefully.

Again, the problem was that Chakotay was a principled Ex-Fleeter who really wasn't Anti-Fed to begin with. He wasn't different enough from Janeway to work as the foil he was meant to be.

 

[Timewalker]

I seriously doubt the Feds on Voyager really cared all that much over a strict dress code. The only time anyone ever used the dress code thing (Riker vs Ro Laren) it was clear he was just being a jerk.

Tuvok had an issue with dress codes.

 

[Anwar]

I seriously doubt the Feds on Voyager really cared all that much over a strict dress code. The only time anyone ever used the dress code thing (Riker vs Ro Laren) it was clear he was just being a jerk.

Tuvok had an issue with dress codes.

Fine, one guy had a minor issue.

 

[Xhiandra]

When I first started reading up on Voyager, I was shocked to learn that it's considered to be the most hated of the Star Trek series. Can someone shed some light as to why?

Hate is a strong word, Voyager has some nice episodes like all Trek series, but I do feel it's the weakest, for these reasons:

1. Neelix. I don't hate Voyager, but I sure hate Neelix. Terrible character, bad actor, I hate every second of him on screen, every second of him talking.
Ok, I'm being slightly hyperbolic: Neelix was interesting for one whole episode (Jetrel).

2. Characters as a whole:

- Most agree that Kim is very bland character. Not annoying (unlike the dreaded Neelix), but really boring.
- Chakotay is pretty boring as well. Later in the show, he seems to do very little, actually. - Did I mention I hate Neelix?
- Kes is annoying as well, albeit less than Neelix.
- Janeway is insane, most agree on that as well. One episode she's all about adhering to the Federation rules to the letter and behaving ethically, the next she throws any inkling of ethics or Federation values under the bus in the name of pragmatism, the next she acts completely irrationally, the next she's back to being by-the-book-Janeway.
- The Doctor's a good character, though they overdid it in some later seasons.
- I liked Tuvok. In fact, I think he makes a better Vulcan than Spock. Spock was constantly surprised by how Human/other non-Vulcans behaviour differed from that of Vulcans; Tuvok expects and anticipates non-Vulcans to be more emotional.
- 7o9 is a bit of a Mary-Sue. Interesting initially but quickly becomes the one-stop solution to any problem.
- Paris and B'elenna... are so forgettable I almost forgot them.

3. Overall, it was quite cheesy. I'm not sure if the writers/showrunners or actors are to blame for this (probably both, to some extent), but the camaraderie feels forced to me, whereas it worked very well on TNG & TOS and pretty well on DS9 (depends on the characters for that one)... hell, even on ENT, it mostly worked.

4. Ultimately, though, the only thing that matters is this: all Trek series have good episodes, mediocre/filler episodes and bad episodes, but Voyager has a lot more of the latter 2 categories than the first.

 

[Relayer1]

I'm certainly in the mainly poor characters played by poor actors camp, with the exception of Robert Picardo who was brilliant and Ethan Phillips who made the best of a bad job.

And in the hand of poor actors who had no chemistry, Kirk Spock and McCoy would be badly thought of by now.

So what's your point?

That it's the only Trek show that had real issues with a number of it's cast.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

I think the "trek cheesiness factor" was at it's highest with Voyager. Too many bad jokes, or non jokes served up as humour, as well as silly sci-fi concepts played straight without a hint of lampshade hanging.

Viewers react positively to a series that treats them with a modicum of intelligence, Voyager presented an interesting concept and then completely betrayed it within a couple of seasons and expected the viewers to be ok with being served up TNG lite plots instead.

By the end, it felt like the writers were just phoning it in and had exhausted any potential new creative avenues.
"Hey, lets just do more borg stuff and call it a day....agreed?"

I felt like Voyager started well but suddenly took a slide in the demographic they were aiming at by season 4.
If DS9 was more wine and cheese, then Voyager became fast food and NASCAR. (hence characters in tight fitting outfits and a freaking hot rod race in space...)

It might've worked if the powers that be handed over the reigns after a couple of seasons like Jeri Taylor did, giving the franchise to some promising new talents instead of treading water and running the franchise into the ground as a result.

I think the main reason it gains so much hatred is it was the one Trek series that underachieved. It had great potential but let us all down.
Fans will respect a series that fails while being ambitious more than one that thinks about shaking things up then ends up playing it safe.
In that respect, even Enterprise did a better job for the franchise than Voyager.

 

[Anwar]

I'm certainly in the mainly poor characters played by poor actors camp, with the exception of Robert Picardo who was brilliant and Ethan Phillips who made the best of a bad job.

And in the hand of poor actors who had no chemistry, Kirk Spock and McCoy would be badly thought of by now.

So what's your point?

That it's the only Trek show that had real issues with a number of it's cast.

Frankly, I think that aside from DS9 (who had a big Galactic War as it's plot after a while) that the big ensemble cast thing wasn't such a great idea. TNG got good mileage out of most of its cast but even there you didn't really need all of them to be in each episode.

VOY would've been better off if the Central cast was just Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, Paris and the Doctor. There wasn't much need for Torres, Kim, Kes and Neelix to be primaries.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

There were several early opportunities to have friction between Federation and Maquis values. Situations like Prime Factors should have come up a lot more often.

Prime directive situations should have been the real wedge issue. Trading technology, making local deals for safety. The big divide between philosophies is essentially big government versus small government, the Federation respecting the authority of 'The powers that be' and the Maquis rejecting it. So, they could have easily had Chakotay have to talk Janeway into helping the oppressed telepaths in Counterpoint. They could have had people other than Seska pushing to deal with the Kazon. They could have had Torres just doing what she thinks is best in Engineering in spite of the chain of command. Etc.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

...the big ensemble cast thing wasn't such a great idea. TNG got good mileage out of most of its cast but even there you didn't really need all of them to be in each episode.

VOY would've been better off if the Central cast was just Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, Paris and the Doctor. There wasn't much need for Torres, Kim, Kes and Neelix to be primaries.

That's interesting, Anwar, and it got me thinking of something else interesting. I wonder if a smaller main cast would have subtly suggested a smaller crew? The Enterprise D had, what, a crew of 1000 or so, and seven main cast members. Coming off the heels of that, I think three or four cast members might've made the ship seem tinier than the Enterprise D...which of course it was.

A little late, of course, but I think you might be onto something there.

 

[USS Triumphant]

...the big ensemble cast thing wasn't such a great idea. TNG got good mileage out of most of its cast but even there you didn't really need all of them to be in each episode.

VOY would've been better off if the Central cast was just Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, Paris and the Doctor. There wasn't much need for Torres, Kim, Kes and Neelix to be primaries.

That's interesting, Anwar, and it got me thinking of something else interesting. I wonder if a smaller main cast would have subtly suggested a smaller crew? The Enterprise D had, what, a crew of 1000 or so, and seven main cast members. Coming off the heels of that, I think three or four cast members might've made the ship seem tinier than the Enterprise D...which of course it was.

A little late, of course, but I think you might be onto something there.

Indeed. Although I also think that it is a mistake for the showrunners to think of ANY of the characters as "primaries". Just write and use good stories, and to heck with any actor's vanity or relative prestige or position to the other actors. A lot of them are still going to involve the bridge crew naturally, because they make contact with other ships and handle a lot of decisions about what the crew does, but I really don't care if they give us a three episode arc that focuses almost entirely on Ensign Jorvat in the xeno-orinthology department as long as they tell us good compelling stories, that are preferably also good sci-fi.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Indeed. Although I also think that it is a mistake for the showrunners to think of ANY of the characters as "primaries". Just write and use good stories, and to heck with any actor's vanity or relative prestige or position to the other actors. A lot of them are still going to involve the bridge crew naturally, because they make contact with other ships and handle a lot of decisions about what the crew does, but I really don't care if they give us a three episode arc that focuses almost entirely on Ensign Jorvat in the xeno-orinthology department as long as they tell us good compelling stories, that are preferably also good sci-fi.

That's a good point too, U.S.S. (if I may call you U.S.S.? )
People have always said that Star Trek crews are nonexistant entities, so what better chance to explore some of these seen-but-seldom-heard crew members, dealing with their situation? Space:1999 tended to largely overlook this option, too.

 

[Anwar]

Prime directive situations should have been the real wedge issue. Trading technology, making local deals for safety. The big divide between philosophies is essentially big government versus small government, the Federation respecting the authority of 'The powers that be' and the Maquis rejecting it. So, they could have easily had Chakotay have to talk Janeway into helping the oppressed telepaths in Counterpoint. They could have had people other than Seska pushing to deal with the Kazon. They could have had Torres just doing what she thinks is best in Engineering in spite of the chain of command. Etc.

The problem was that the Maquis themselves DID believe in the Chain of Command and had their own. Chakotay brought a lot of his Fleet training and experience with him and based his cell around that, Torres was put in charge of Engineering so her doing what she wanted WAS her job.

I do agree that they should've disagreed over external relations more but the Maquis would've known they couldn't trust the Kazon with anything.

The Maquis/Fleet thing never had more life to it than 1 season or so.

In DS9 Sisko had tensions with Kira and Odo in the first season, and then after that season they were all pals and got over it.

That's about as long as it could conceivably last in VOY.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I don't want to see stories about some enlisted nobody, the ordinary crewman. STAR TREK's shown the folly of such in the TNG episode: TAPESTRY, when Picard's shown to be an "ordinary" crewman, thanks to the magic of Q. That part of the story was dull and without imagination. Captain Picard, as he was, proved to be far superior.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I don't want to see stories about some enlisted nobody, the ordinary crewman. STAR TREK's shown the folly of such in the TNG episode: TAPESTRY, when Picard's shown to be an "ordinary" crewman, thanks to the magic of Q. That part of the story was dull and without imagination. Captain Picard, as he was, proved to be far superior.

Yes. And "Lower Decks" was one of the worst episodes of the series, too, right?

Oh. No. Wait. It was actually one of the best.