Tuvix was a creep who took liberties with the Captain and Kes. I wouldn't say he was the best of anything.
Voyager again, for the first time
- Thread starter NightJim
- Start date
That's the fundamental error in this process: basing the decision on the likability of Tuvix. Janeway did that, or else Kes's tearful plea for wanting Neelix back wouldn't have been what pushed her over the edge in making a decision. It doesn't matter if he was a first class jerk or not. That doesn't invalidate his right to live. That would be like me saying since I don't like you, I have the right to harvest your organs to save two people I like more. That's basically what Janeway did.
Except there's the inciting incident, which in your example is the accidental ripping of the two people's organs out and creating a person from them. The Medical staff all say it can't be reversed, and just as everyone comes to accept this new person they figure out "oh wait we can undo it"
Hmm good thinking. I dont know. Initially, and I know this is SOOOOO wrong but please dont judge me, I would say that I wouldnt have been sad to see him go...but I think that is just natural. Who wants to watch a character one genuinely dislikes...I know I dont...but that would NEVER be a reason to murder someone...just because he has some bad qualities and character traits...but that is a very delicate subject....
You can't morally say it's acceptable to kill someone against their will to save one life, two lives or a hundred. No person should be able to be able to decide this. Had Tuvix volunteered for it that would be different, but he didn't. You can call him a coward if you want, but last I checked that's not a capital crime.
I can say it's the sort of decision that has to be made be a military commander, it may be a bit unusual outside of combat but that's exactly what the decision was.
Did Janeway commit murder? Yes, the show doesn't even hide from that. Is she within her rights to make that decision as Captain of the vessel? Yes.
Did Janeway commit murder? Yes, the show doesn't even hide from that. Is she within her rights to make that decision as Captain of the vessel? Yes.
No.
Kodos the Execution was a decent human being that made a silly decision 20 years before TOS. The colony he was governing had got it's crops ass ended by a plague. They ran out of food, and everyone would die months before the relief ships showed up with humanitarian aid. Kodos took they only reasonable course of action available to him... Calling for the state approved and legally sanctioned euthanasia of 4000 hearthy federation Citizens so that the remainder of the neighbourhood could plod on unremittingly.
They didn't wait for history to find him an ass hole, the present took care of that toot sweet, Kodos was wrong and a criminal and hunted by the law for years, and exactly what Janeway did to Tuvix on a vaster scale so she should have been equally as wrong.
Choosing who to kill by lottery would have been shit.
Randomly bombing or gassing th public would entail too much collateral waste.
Not eating the corpses of the slain would have a ridiculous waste of food.
So why kill the old when they'd taste spoiled?
& Why kill the thin when the fat will feed four times as many people, and thin by definition eat less anyway.
I'm 50/50 on children. Not as much meat, but they are fucking annoying.
You would have to wonder if Tribbles are kept in stasis as emergency famine insurance since their discovery?
Kodos the Execution was a decent human being that made a silly decision 20 years before TOS. The colony he was governing had got it's crops ass ended by a plague. They ran out of food, and everyone would die months before the relief ships showed up with humanitarian aid. Kodos took they only reasonable course of action available to him... Calling for the state approved and legally sanctioned euthanasia of 4000 hearthy federation Citizens so that the remainder of the neighbourhood could plod on unremittingly.
They didn't wait for history to find him an ass hole, the present took care of that toot sweet, Kodos was wrong and a criminal and hunted by the law for years, and exactly what Janeway did to Tuvix on a vaster scale so she should have been equally as wrong.
Choosing who to kill by lottery would have been shit.
Randomly bombing or gassing th public would entail too much collateral waste.
Not eating the corpses of the slain would have a ridiculous waste of food.
So why kill the old when they'd taste spoiled?
& Why kill the thin when the fat will feed four times as many people, and thin by definition eat less anyway.
I'm 50/50 on children. Not as much meat, but they are fucking annoying.
You would have to wonder if Tribbles are kept in stasis as emergency famine insurance since their discovery?
Basics Parts 1&2 - probably taking a break now, as some friends and I are going over old Doctor Who for the 50th Anniversary.
Anyway, Part 1 is a a good season ender, Part 2 was just alright. I'm not too sure about the whole on the planet survival stuff. I'd have preferred to see them struggle with day to day rather then conflict with caveman and crazy worm dragons. It all seemed over a bit too quickly as well.
That said, the end of Suder's and Seska's stories were well down. Suder's struggle to kill again was brilliantly done, and I think the episode would have been a lot stronger concentrating on the Kazon, Suder and the Doc. Especially after the revelation of the baby, though following a conversation in another thread I now can't help but wonder what would have been if they hadn't wussed out on the DNA steal.
Edit: Actually, no. Having sat with it for 10 minutes, Seska's story was ok, right up to the end. Her death was cheap. Paris and Suder take her out with a loopback. Why Seska? Something way more dramatic was needed there.
Oh and Tuvok's archery is diabolical.
Anyway, Part 1 is a a good season ender, Part 2 was just alright. I'm not too sure about the whole on the planet survival stuff. I'd have preferred to see them struggle with day to day rather then conflict with caveman and crazy worm dragons. It all seemed over a bit too quickly as well.
That said, the end of Suder's and Seska's stories were well down. Suder's struggle to kill again was brilliantly done, and I think the episode would have been a lot stronger concentrating on the Kazon, Suder and the Doc. Especially after the revelation of the baby, though following a conversation in another thread I now can't help but wonder what would have been if they hadn't wussed out on the DNA steal.
Edit: Actually, no. Having sat with it for 10 minutes, Seska's story was ok, right up to the end. Her death was cheap. Paris and Suder take her out with a loopback. Why Seska? Something way more dramatic was needed there.
Oh and Tuvok's archery is diabolical.
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They should never have killed Seska. She should have been the Dukat of VOY. She could have shadowed Voyager for years, appearing for varying eps, staying on board "reformed" for a bit and then fucking everyone over again. Maybe cloning 50 Chak babies and leaving them all over the ship like the Easter bunny. Cool stuff like that.
I'd have liked to see PICARD get a fire going on that planet without the Janeway "Tinder". 
Poor Kathryn, she's been waiting for Chakotay to look at that way since New Earth... and all he's lusting after is her hair!
Poor Kathryn, she's been waiting for Chakotay to look at that way since New Earth... and all he's lusting after is her hair!
I wonder what Data's hair is made of. I remember it gets all scruffy at some point in one of the movies.
And you know, why wasn't Data full of practical stuff like a Swiss army knife? Stranded on a planet with no phasers he should be able to make fire just by turning one of his fingers into a lighter. Fingernail lifts up, flame comes out.
And you know, why wasn't Data full of practical stuff like a Swiss army knife? Stranded on a planet with no phasers he should be able to make fire just by turning one of his fingers into a lighter. Fingernail lifts up, flame comes out.
I'd have liked to see PICARD get a fire going on that planet without the Janeway "Tinder".
Poor Kathryn, she's been waiting for Chakotay to look at that way since New Earth... and all he's lusting after is her hair!
"You're so hot captain, your hair is about to be on fire."
But Picard would've just set fire to Riker's beard. That'd be fun.
Ha, while hilarious, it might have gone against Soong's attempt at making a realistic human. Then again, the super strength probably didn't help either.
i've also not seen those episodes for 15 years, so any interpretation of what Soong was doing is completely made up.
And that hair thing, that was totally Chakotay trying to pull a move, we've discussed that Janeway shot him down the minute they got back on board. She wasn't having any of it onboard. Probably why he was the most "We can survive" because inside he's thinking "we're not on the ship, maybe I have a chance now"
Seska had so much more potential, and I think that episode did. A lot of what Part 1 set up was completely wasted, baby suddenly changes father, Seska dying just like that. Pfft.
Least Paris and Suder did okay by it.
what do you mean baby suddenly changes father?
Seska assumed it was chakotay's baby but she was probably already pregnant with the Kullah's baby when she tried to impregnate herself
Exactly.
It is interesting, however, that there are so many in the VOY forum who think that I would not only have been justified, but that I actually *should have* killed someone to get a new kidney for my sweetie. That I did not simply proves that I didn't love him as much as Janeway loves Kes and Kes loves Neelix.
I'm really glad that I'll never run into these folks IRL. 'Cause I'm getting to the age where I'm old & expendable...
Up until that point it had been Chakotay's, the only mention of Kullah was she'd slept with him so he'd think it was his until it was born. It felt like a last second change because someone balked at that idea.
Having looked at the behind the scenes, that's exactly what happened. It was written as Chakotay was the father. Piller left, and they changed it, and quite a lot of things that was planned for part 2.
there's nothing in the episdes that shows that it was for sure chakotay's baby
So I have a question, we all know that the original Resolutions script was supposed to include a kiss between J/C. I have part of the original script but only up until that kiss. I wanna know what they planned to happen for the rest of the episode until Voyager comes back...does anybody know? Was it any different from what we have actually seen? Was it more intimate?
Also can we talk about Hunters and Workforce yet? Or are we not there yet?? I dont wanna spoil it for those who watch it the first time...
Also can we talk about Hunters and Workforce yet? Or are we not there yet?? I dont wanna spoil it for those who watch it the first time...
So I have a question, we all know that the original Resolutions script was supposed to include a kiss between J/C. I have part of the original script but only up until that kiss. I wanna know what they planned to happen for the rest of the episode until Voyager comes back...does anybody know? Was it any different from what we have actually seen? Was it more intimate?
Also can we talk about Hunters and Workforce yet? Or are we not there yet?? I dont wanna spoil it for those who watch it the first time...
You are a couple of seasons too early for this thread, but nothing's preventing you from starting your own episode specific threads.
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