Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

[Guy Gardener]

Meditation works.

No one said that meditation wouldn't work for some people.

Although, if all else failed, there was always stasis till they got back to Vulcan.

I'm curious about if the telepathic link could have been used for intergalactic communication? That would mean, if it worked once, that to maintain contact with the Alpha quadrant that the Doctor would have to routinely and repeatedly induce Pon farr to send "word" to Vorrik's mate, or Tuvok's mate on the other side of the Galaxy, and then "stop" the pon far in the only ways that are acceptable.

I don't mean to be rude, well really I do, but the weight of this entire situation falls on the vagina of the Captain. The crew is her responsibility, and if she lets Vorrik die, no one else on the ship should feel compelled to follow her orders again, because Janeway cares more about her own dignity than her crews lives.

(If the Captain had been a man, ditto. The shere weight of Spock/Kirk slash fanfiction is in danger of sinking the internet.)

Although last time she melded with Tuvok, in Flashback, he gave her syphilis.

Once bitten, twice shy.

 

[Third Nacelle]

^I believe that Vulcan nurse was killed in Caretaker.

And I think that the reason Vorik didn't prepare better was that he didn't know what to expect with the Pon Farr. I'm sure as a Vulcan he was aware of it, but Vulcans don't really go around talking in detail about it. I'll bet Vulcan sex ed is basically "you'll have some hormonal changes, but don't worry, you'll be hooked up with an arranged spouse and everything will be taken care of."

And then - bam - Pon Farr comes along and it's a lot worse and more uncontrollable than he ever expected.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why do a few of you think that this was his first Pon Farr?

Every seven years from Puberty.

Does puberty trigger pon farr, or does pon farr trigger puberty?

The most ridiculous margins would say that this was his second pon far if the character is the same age as the actor, like Spock was sorta/almost, which was unlike how the actress was half the age of her character in the case of Jolene and T'Pol...

Mark Leonard was not over 200 years old when he guest starred in TNG Sarek.

Alexander was 24 in 1996.

How old was Vorrik?

 

[Third Nacelle]

^What makes you think Vulcan puberty occurs at the same time as human puberty?

I'm sure if Vorik had gone through the Pon Farr before, he would have been better prepared, and would have been married already.

Wasn't Amok Time Spock's first Pon Farr?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Do we know for certain that it is puberty that triggers it? Maybe puberty brings about secondary sex characteristics but pon far requires specific brain development that doesn't occur until the twenties.

 

[Sadara]

^What makes you think Vulcan puberty occurs at the same time as human puberty?

I'm sure if Vorik had gone through the Pon Farr before, he would have been better prepared, and would have been married already.

Wasn't Amok Time Spock's first Pon Farr?

Yes, which makes it difficult to imagine they experience it in their early teens, if in their teens at all. Spock's human half might have affected the onset of his though, either earlier or later. Now in Star Trek III I believe Saavik said they experience it every 7th year of their *adult* lives so I would take that to mean at some point in their 20's if that is when Vulcans are considered fully adult.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Search for Spock.

DAVID: This planet is ageing in surges.
SAAVIK: And Spock with it. It seems they're joined together.
DAVID: They are.
SAAVIK: How long?
DAVID: Days, ...maybe hours. I'm sorry.
SAAVIK: It will be hardest on Spock. Soon he will feel the burning of his Vulcan blood.
DAVID: But, I don't understand.
SAAVIK: Pon farr. Vulcan males must endure it every seven years of their adult life.
(David's tricorder bleeps)
DAVID: Whoever they are, they're getting closer.
SAAVIK: I'll go.
DAVID: No! ...I'll do it. Give me your phaser.

imdb listing for search for spock

Carl Steven ... Spock...Age 9
Vadia Potenza ... Spock...Age 13
Stephen Manley ... Spock...Age 17
Joe W. Davis ... Spock...Age 25

I'm assuming that those "ages" were taken from script direction, or a casting sheet, or the cast list at the end of the movie as the credits rolled.

Saavik shtupped Vadia, Stephen and Joe.



From Amok Time...

SPOCK: By our parents' arrangement. A ceremony while we were but seven years of age. Less than a marriage but more than a betrothal. One touches the other in order to feel each other's thoughts. In this way our minds were locked together, so that at the proper time, we would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-if-fee.
(A jingling sound gets louder, and Spock strikes the gong again. Two men enter shaking contraptions with lots of bells, followed by a woman carried on a chair. T'Pring and others come behind her.)

The artificial telepathic link that draws husbands and wives together is separate but associated with pon far. In the movie Spock didn't have training, hell... Spock didn't even have language. Pon far is something uncontrollable that happens no matter what. Betrothal/telepathicbondage is a process designed to civilly cut down on the massrape and body count.

There's also this...

SPOCK: The birds and the bees are not Vulcans, Captain. If they were, if any creature as proudly logical as us were to have their logic ripped from them as this time does to us. How do Vulcans choose their mates? Haven't you wondered?
KIRK: I guess the rest of us assume that it's done quite logically.
SPOCK: No. No. It is not. We shield it with ritual and customs shrouded in antiquity. You humans have no conception. It strips our minds from us. It brings a madness which rips away our veneer of civilisation. It is the pon farr. The time of mating. There are precedents in nature, Captain. The giant eelbirds of Regulus Five, once each eleven years they must return to the caverns where they hatched. On your Earth, the salmon. They must return to that one stream where they were born, to spawn or die in trying.

In all honesty it's been 20 years since i last saw Amok time... NO! I borrowed the dvds for a marathon ten years ago. Still, what's a decade between friends?

 

[Third Nacelle]

^^Maybe even later than that considering how long they live.

Spock was 37 in Amok Time, but I don't know how being half human affected him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The strange thing is that Spock says that they did the betrothal ceremony when they were both 7 years old, but he's two years older than T'Pring by the time they try to get married... How did he gain two years?

Tuvok gained seven months in gravity when he was in the time warped sink hole which is going to completely put him out of sorts with his wife when he gets back... Will they need a full recommitment ceremony in a church with bells and shit or can they get'er dunn in a Doctor's office?

You're not counting the zero year as being a year of their adult life. It's not puberty, wait seven years PONFARR... It's PUBERTY/PONFARR double whammy, apologise for seven years to every one that saw something they shouldn't have, and then the second pon farr is close to or just after 20.

WTF!?

Why was Alexander playing "Third Malon Engineer" in Juggernaut?

C'MON!

I wonder if when Alexander Enberg googles himself, if he also googles "Vorrik" to see if people are still talking about him? ...Because he is going to find this thread.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The only reason he will find this thread if he googles vorrik is because you keep spelling it with two r's.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You shouldn't make fun of people with a stutter, even if they are an asshole.

Let's define a Vulcan child.

The emotional development of an emotionally stagnant/devoid creature?

Logic trumps childhood.

The intellectual development of a creature with the potential for an IQ 4 to 5 times that of a "normal" human being.

So what we're really looking at here is Stewie Griffen.

A child's body with a completely adapted healthy Vulcan adults mental/emotional acuity and composure by the age of... 6 months?



A few years. Maybe three? I have met some really on to it human 3 year olds.

Here's a point that Peter David raised.

"Graduated/paced development."

If the upper limit of their life expectancy is 300 years, and middle age is there for 100 to 200, then adult prime is 50 - 100, and adolescence 25 to 50, which means that childhood should be the first 25 years of their life before they begin to look like a human 10 year old.

Which is logical, but doesn't track with the available evidence on hand.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

eh, I posted that on my phone on a train and it took me like 20 minutes to touchface it out, it was horrible. And I couldn't add any ameliorating emoticons which I would normally do since I only rag on spelling if something dirty comes to mind, not if someone is just spelling with wrongness.

People used to live to 50 and they didn't hit puberty at 7. In fact they came of reproduction age often later than we do today because we eat better. Add in alien-ness and I don't think we can speculate that living longer means childhood is longer. Adolescence has been extended for humans because of economy and sociological reasons, not because we now live longer.

Klingons grow up quicker, but live longer.

The Vulcan kids in ST:XI were snotty shits, but they were school kids, doing seemingly advanced studies. No way were they ready for pon farr. We only saw the boys (what was up with THAT?! do they segregate them??) but I can't imagine a girl a couple years older than them bearing and raising children. Much less ALL of them doing so.

I think something gets switched on in their brains to bring on pon farr and it happens into early adulthood, whatever that means for Vulcans. 20's I will assume. Prior to that you just have secondary sex characteristics and vague horniness which reading The Teaching of Surak will put a nice damper on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're arguing with Peter David's thoughts on the Dr Selar's child which surprised her because she forgot to take into account that her boy was a hybrid with alien attributes which sped up early development considerably... Seriously? Selar? Did they even try to offer her "that" part when they were casting Voyager? Either as the Doctor, or the Doctor/Captain... Imagine Voyager's Captain's relationship with the EMH if the CO had formerly been a CMO? Failing that, the EMH could have been patterned after Selar, or theCMO might not of died and the Hologram could have been staffed to another position on the ship.

That woman was Gorgeous, and is still nothing to sneeze at on How I met your Mother.

Where was I?

Childhood takes as long as it takes.

Environment is a huge issue.

But when you get down to it, did Saavik frakk a thirteen year old Spock?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I have trouble watching TSFS because it is so icky, so I don't know.

Couldn't she have just given him a hand job to stave him off until he jumped forward to 18 at least? He was growing super fast, I'm sure she could have strung him along until the ickiness factor diminished.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As supplied earlier there were 4 actors other than Nimoy who played Spock, aged at 9, 13, 17, and 25.

However she was quelling the pon farr, it was an affliction that hit the 13 year old or the 17 year old as subject zero.

I think it was the thirteen year old, but I can't be bothered watching the movie either to make certain.

 

[Sadara]

I don't see how it could be the 13 year old. If Vulcans got their first pon farr that early, they'd likely just marry their betrothed at that time since that was already done when they were seven. So you have minors having sex, which I'm sure the Vulcans would frown on at that age, but they could put a happy face on it by having the poor dears marry. Could probably work in some whoops babies while they're at it. Spock and T'Pring with adult spawn could have been interesting.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Do you remember being 13? Maybe my experiences/generation was different, but in my class (there was about a thousand of us.) there were plenty of 13 year olds having sex (with other 13 years old and not that much older) and even a couple pregnancies that were carried to term.

The marriage/mating drive is about babies, not "wow my penis finally works, well I guess it's just one vagina for me until I die."

The parents force a telepathic bond between 7 year olds that kicks in when the parents think the time is appropriate, it's like the Manchurian candidate with sex.

If it wasn't for the the telepathic bond, the Vulcan in the heat, boy or girl, it would just be a question of proximity, and you'd end up with weird mutt pairings of princes and hillbillies, which high society is pursed to frown upon.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I think we should take Spock out of the equation for age of pon farr. There are too many unknowns with him being half human. Add in the artificial growth rate he experienced when being resurrected and you are far from text book Vulcan biology.

I'm wondering now, where does all this mating take place? If you have a Vulcan couple who already have a 8 year old and an 15 year old surely both parents aren't losing control and screaming and mating and smashing stuff in the home? Or maybe they always send the children away when it hits? Yeah I guess Vulcan kids might grow up with this being a norm, couple other kids coming to stay periodically for a week because their parents are "meditating together".

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think I argued quite well that a Vulcan three year old is equipped to leave the house, hold down a 9 to 5 and start payments on hir mortgage for a small pleasure moon that should be in the black by the time they're almost 40 when the mating urge gets really specific for the wife and not the secretary bent over a photocopier.

Kes was frakking Neelix when she was one years old, and Kim was frakking her two year old daughter Lynnis, and if that timeline had persisted within a couple months, someone who had been changing Andrew Kim's diapers weeks earlier would be hopelessly romantically in love with him too. On DS9 Alexander looked almost 20, and "someone" on the main cast should have been showing him a good time which should have pissed off his father that a 30 year old genetically engineered human doctor was taking advantage of his 7 year old son.

The differences between Vulcans and Romulans.

Eugenics.

Ponfar was either added to make sure that a ridiculously logical species remembered to make babies, or Pon Far was subtracted because a highly emotional sexual species didn't need permission or excuses to rape and kill their neighbours.

Furtherly Eugenics.

Vulcans are reeeeeeally smart. A 4 year old with an IQ of 300 and the mental discipline to excel at telepathy and bind their emotions?

That sounds like something you'd fight a civil war over, determining the shape of your children and the future of the species... Romulans just seem not quite as bright, and they need machines to probe minds. What if the Age of Reason wasn't just an ideological shift, but surgical?

 

[Sadara]

Do you remember being 13? Maybe my experiences/generation was different, but in my class (there was about a thousand of us.) there were plenty of 13 year olds having sex (with other 13 years old and not that much older) and even a couple pregnancies that were carried to term.

The marriage/mating drive is about babies, not "wow my penis finally works, well I guess it's just one vagina for me until I die."

The parents force a telepathic bond between 7 year olds that kicks in when the parents think the time is appropriate, it's like the Manchurian candidate with sex.

If it wasn't for the the telepathic bond, the Vulcan in the heat, boy or girl, it would just be a question of proximity, and you'd end up with weird mutt pairings of princes and hillbillies, which high society is pursed to frown upon.

Of course, but I'm taking into consideration that Vulcan culture is quite different than human culture. I seriously doubt teenagers having sex on Vulcan isn't frowned on.