Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

JD said:
So this stuff does happen, it's just not the focus of the book?

Like I said, the blurb describes the setup for the story. It doesn't say anything about what happens along the way.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I admit, the Borg don't do it for me anymore either, but I'm interested to see how the relaunch books are. They're next on my list.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

***WARNING: POTENTIALLY STRONG LANGUAGE, DESCRIPTION OF THE REVIEWER'S REVIEWING HABITS, AND OTHER IMAGERY AHEAD***

As I near the end of Before Dishonor, I realize now that I named this thread incorrectly.

It should really read What the motherfucking hell was Peter David smoking and/or thinking when writing this book?!

I have *never* had this visceral a reaction to a novel-ever. And so it is with dismay and disgust that Before Dishonor has achieved something I hadn't hoped possible.

Where to begin?

Perhaps with the goddamned mutiny. As if there weren't enough drama and angst enough, we have a little cabal of officers who decide that they know better than a Starfleet captain with decades of experience and a widely respected Federation Ambassador with even more experience. I am throughly abhorred and disgusted by the actions of Kadohata, Leybenzon, and T'Lana. In the middle of this crisis, they decide to stage a mutiny?! What the hell?! But, of course, Picard and Co. actually really do know what's best, but let's not let them do what needs to be done! Oh no! And Kadohata threatened to vaporize Worf if he didn't do what she said? Cue the universe exploding from irony.

But, what about freaking Pluto getting absorbed?! Was that supposed to be slightly humorous? Because gallows humor doesn't come across well in this novel.

I'm so...frustrated and appalled by this novel that I'm shaking. Literally. Although it could be the sugar. You see, every time I sit down to read a book (especially when I know I'm going to write a review), I have a drink and a snack (usually something sweet) nearby.

I'm only on page 309, and Before Dishonor has required the following (over the past 24 hours):

1 small carton of Ben and Jerry's Creme Brulee ice cream
1 strip of frosted gingerbread
2 turkey and cheese sandwiches
3 gingerbread cookies

And at least 5 Diet Cokes. Needless to say this is an excessive amount, for any novel. (Hell, when I read Serpents Among The Ruins, it required a significantly lower amount of Reviewing Snacks).

I'm almost hoping that this work wasn't done by the Peter David of New Frontier fame. I'm desperately hoping that this is another Peter David. Because this is without question his worst novel-ever. And it might even get my Seal of Disapproval. I generally never give a novel anything like that unless it's truly horrible. And, sadly, Before Dishonor fits, in my opinion.

The original working title was Excessum Rector, which apparently translates to The Queen is Dead or something like that. Frankly, it would have been a gross misnomer (unless that was the point). All I know is that tonight there will be Excessive Retching

I'll finish it, because *maybe* it picks up. At the very least, I want to see this tragic shambles of a TNG Relaunch story to it's well-deserved end.

 

[Julio Angel Ortiz]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^ But did you like the gift shop?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^That part I had mixed feelings about. It was meant as a light moment, and it kinda worked, but I also thought it was a little inappropriate considering the circumstances. *shrug*

I'm just...disappointed. I wasn't expecting a mutiny, and the reasoning for it was crappy. T'Lana and Leybenzon are just...I don't know. I would recommend that they remove the duranium pipe shoved up Leybenzon's ass, and that T'Lana should be marginalized. The whole "Oooh...conflict with the Captain!" is so stale it's moldy. I didn't like it when Kira and Sisko first went through it, I didn't like it with Janeway and Chakotay, and I didn't like it when Archer and T'Pol did it. Because it's very easy to abuse and overuse, and Peter David should be fined for these exorbitant usages. I had higher hopes for Kadohata. When she didn't go along with Leybenzon (originally) I was slightly enthused. But then she decides that "Command knows better" (which is so laughable it's unfunny now), and any respect I might have for those characters is lost, at least for now.

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Honestly, I think a lot of the problems with 'Before Dishonor' are contingent upon the fact that it was written pretty much side by side with 'Q&A'.

It was left to 'Q&A' to really introduce the new crew characters and therefore define our initial impressions of them.

'Before Dishonor' being the follow-up book and coming out right on it's heels had to mean that both books were being fleshed out right on top of each other and as a result there is absolutely no resemblance between the characters of Kadohata & Leybenzon portrayed in 'Q&A' and little to none with T'Lana with those found in 'Before Dishonor'.

This isn't an excuse, but it's probably the closest thing to a realistic reason for why the characterizations are so drastically different we're ever going to get.

I wish it was different and more likely than not, reader response will necessitate the downplay most of the problems in future stories, save the really plot intensive aspects like the mutiny. Of course, knowing some of these authors around here, they'll find a perfectly reasonable way to integrate and "fix" all the problems and produce a great story at the same time.

It's sad really. TNG was my first introduction to Star Trek and I was hoping for some of the brilliance found in the Deep Space Nine Relaunch to also find it's way into its TNG counterpart. Sadly, it just hasn't gelled for me yet. I'm going to give it time though.

I know Peter David can be a good writer, he's proved it numerous times... but if anything, I think he works best in his own Playground, namely 'New Frontier' where he gets to make all the rules and knows the score before going in. He just doesn't seem to have the same grasp upon the TNG characters.

I'm honestly looking forward to Christopher's entry putting the TNG relaunch back on track.

Crosses fingers.

Edit:

Just so I'm clear. I didn't like this book. I just wanted to point out the main reason why I couldn't just read it and move on. I thought this book FAILED to satisfy for any reason. If the characters aren't themselves, then it's just not worth it.

Also, I should have mentioned that I found no real faults with any of the other books in the TNG Relaunch save 'Resistance' & 'Before Dishonor'. (I assumed it was implied but I need to work on stating things more clearly.) Even so 'Resistance' was passable cause the characters were recognizable, 'Before Dishonor' was just unenjoyable on any level.

Q&A was a very fun book which I enjoyed quite a bit and I'm not sure if 'Death in Winter' counts in the Relaunch titles, but I enjoyed that one as well.

 

[Section 31]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I have to disagree. Before Dishonor would have been abominable even if Leybenzon, Kadohata, and T'Lana were completely new characters. There's so much that's bad about the novel that it's hard to know where to begin (though thankfully most of it has already been covered on this board).

As for Peter David's future writing, I totally agree. I think it should be confined to his own New Frontier series, and that it should be treated as its own self-contained universe, like Shatner's books.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Really, it was only Resistance and Before Dishonor that have let me down this year, Trek Lit wise.

I mean, there were certain parts of the other books that came out this year that I didn't necessarily like, but these two were the ones that, on the whole, were vastly disappointing.

I'm still scratching my head as to what went wrong...

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Technobuilder said:
. He just doesn't seem to have the same grasp upon the TNG characters.

Actually, back when the show was on the air and he was writing TNG, I thought that nobody got the characters better than PAD.

 

[JD]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Well, after reading Vixen's review, and the first 155 pages of the book before that, I've decided to put BD down in favor of Forged in Fire. I'm certainly going to back to BD eventually, but I've been dying to find get the stories told in FiF for about 13 years or so.

So far I must admit to not being very impressed with BD, mostly for three reasons so far.
1. Jellico's attitude is really pissing me off. I understand that he's an ass and he's always been an ass (at least when PD), but for some reason this time it's just really bothering me.
2. The whole absorbtion thing is just really weird IMO.
3. All of the stuff I've heard about that comes later (the mutiny, Pluto being absorbed, and the admirals betting on the Borg thing especially).
It's certainly not the worst thing I've ever read, but it is definitely not the best either. From what I've read so far I would give it a 6.5 only because is still a good writer even if the story isn't very good (I hope that makes sense).

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Turtletrekker said:

Technobuilder said:
. He just doesn't seem to have the same grasp upon the TNG characters.

Actually, back when the show was on the air and he was writing TNG, I thought that nobody got the characters better than PAD.

Now though...I mean, I can't exactly imagine Beverly walking across hers and Picard's shared quarters, naked, and sitting in his lap. And...I don't know.

I have to admit, this is my most scathing review yet. And I'm not even done yet.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

JD said:
1. Jellico's attitude is really pissing me off. I understand that he's an ass and he's always been an ass (at least when PD), but for some reason this time it's just really bothering me.

Because Peter David's books always has Jellico as the Annoying Commanding Admiral. And when an ass is placed into a situation with the fate of billions hanging in the balance, and there's nothing he can do...*shrug*

2. The whole absorbtion thing is just really weird IMO.

Agreed. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how it breaks matter down, but I'm not worried too much about it.

3. All of the stuff I've heard about that comes later (the mutiny, Pluto being absorbed, and the admirals betting on the Borg thing especially).

For me, the actions are only part of it (well, in regards to the mutiny the whole thing pisses me off). But Jellico and Nechayev are constantly making little darkly funny comments that totally ruin the scene. They appear to not take it seriously, but then they totally ride herd over Picard for not being at Earth.

It's certainly not the worst thing I've ever read, but it is definitely not the best either. From what I've read so far I would give it a 6.5 only because is still a good writer even if the story isn't very good (I hope that makes sense).

That does make sense. I think a 6.5 is very generous, but that's just MO. YMMV.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Okay, I have finished it (with plenty of 2007 left to start a new book and end on a more positive note).

You know that Henry VIII quote I used in the OP? Definitely qualifies here. From the beginning to the end, and everything in between, Before Dishonor was a massive letdown.

We have admirals betting on the survival of Earth and humanity. We have Borg that absorb and are just fucking weird. We have a mutiny whose reasoning is based in a flawed notion, and which is later ended (with something of a I-told-you-so moment). That annoying Vulcan counselor (I would have used b***h, but that might be going too far) and the equally annoying and idiotic security chief.

Overall, it was schlock. Dreck. Perhaps even schiesse. It was almost a caricature of a TNG novel, and a bad one at that. (BTW, if the whole point was to have T'Lana get off the ship eventually, why not just kill her? Hell, Leybenzon too.)

It wouldn't be a Peter David novel with Captain Calhoun and the Excalibur, which, if the novel had been better, might have worked. Now, it just looks like a gratuitous throw-in to try and prop the story up.

I was somewhat glad when Janeway died. Her character in the novels was so hypocritical that I almost didn't believe it. And Nechayev and Jellico betting on the outcome? The dark humor got pushed way outside safety parameters.

I'm having trouble recalling any parts or things that I liked. As it is, I'll be glad to relegate this to the bookshelf until I feel it has matured. If I were to give it a number rating (out of 5) I'd give it a 1.25. Out of 10, a 2.005

ETA: I'm going to go read either Provenance of Shadows or The Buried Age now. You can expect a review (although I already did one of TBA, so...)

 

[General Martok]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Sorry that you hated it, Vixen. I thought it was fine, and completely in keeping with what I've come to expect from Peter David, one of my favorite Trek authors. At heart, he's a comic book writer, so everything is larger-than-life, callously heroic, whatever. No verismo here. And that is exactly what BD delivered. I'd give it a B.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^See, I didn't get that comic book feel at all. Some parts of New Frontier, certainly. But a comic book? Well, maybe the suspension of belief...

With Before Dishonor, it was like what my mom cooked for dinner(Meatloaf with leftover pasta) last night: Just sort of thrown together, whether by desperation or lack of caring. And the end result wasn't very good, in either cases.

I'm really wondering how much time he spent on Before Dishonor, because...it just feels so slap-dash and raw. Like I noted earlier, the story is really just a repeat of Resistance (which wasn't all that good either). Just add in an epic battle like Wolf 359 or Sector 001, Janeway, Calhoun and crew, and the characteristics of a New Frontier novel, and you have Before Dishonor.

I had been expecting a lot more, from Peter David and J.M. Dillard. To have been let down by such Trek Lit alumni is very disappointing. However, I ordered Forged in Fire, Strange New Worlds 10 and some political books (Bella Abzug: How One Tough Broad from the Bronx Fought Jim Crow and Joe McCarthy, Pissed off Jimmy Carter, Battled for the Rights of Women and Workers, Rallied against War and For the Planet, and Shook Up Politics Along The Way and Boom! Voices of the Sixties) so I'll be all right-for now.

My feelings on Resistance and Before Dishonor? Unless you're a hardcore TNG fan, like the Borg, Peter David, J.M. Dillard, Seven of Nine, Spock, Janeway, and "Teh kewlness!", these books won't do much for you. In fact, in some ways, it might be worse if you do like any of the above.

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Vixen said:
With Before Dishonor, it was like what my mom cooked for dinner(Meatloaf with leftover pasta) last night: Just sort of thrown together, whether by desperation or lack of caring. And the end result wasn't very good, in either cases.

As a man who's been living out of the microwave and Kraft Dinner boxes for longer than he cares to remember: don't be dissing cooked meals, especially when prepared by other people. You'll miss 'em.

However, I ordered Forged in Fire, Strange New Worlds 10 and some political books (Bella Abzug: How One Tough Broad from the Bronx Fought Jim Crow and Joe McCarthy, Pissed off Jimmy Carter, Battled for the Rights of Women and Workers, Rallied against War and For the Planet, and Shook Up Politics Along The Way...

Or BA:HOTBFTBFJCAJMPOJCBFTROWAWRAWAFTPASUPATW, for short

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Trent Roman said:

Vixen said:
With Before Dishonor, it was like what my mom cooked for dinner(Meatloaf with leftover pasta) last night: Just sort of thrown together, whether by desperation or lack of caring. And the end result wasn't very good, in either cases.

As a man who's been living out of the microwave and Kraft Dinner boxes for longer than he cares to remember: don't be dissing cooked meals, especially when prepared by other people. You'll miss 'em.

I know. But my mom is usually a terrific cook, and last night's meal wasn't up to her usual standard. (Almost a direct parallel to the two aforementioned novels that caused disappointment).

Or BA:HOTBFTBFJCAJMPOJCBFTROWAWRAWAFTPASUPATW, for short

Oh...that was funny. :thumbsup:

 

[Hardin]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Vixen, you have said it all and very, very well, BD couldn't have been more disappointing.

What baffles me more than anything else is this sudden need to put conflict among the crew in TNG: TNG never had it on tv and was able to tell great stories anyway.

Now suddenly we have to endure it in the worst possible way, with that idiot wanna-be torturer security chief (the Italian guy in Resistance was so much better than Leyb-what's-his-name) and the most obnoxious Vulcan ever staging a mutiny that makes no sense and doesn't work and why? I still don't have a clue. So we can have some conflict? What's the point? Picard is clearly right (besides he's the kind of captain that's right even when he's wrong) and he has Seven, Spock and the only officers we truly know and love at this point on his side. Was anybody supposed to be thorn between the two sides?

I really don't get it, all I know is that I wished LadyQ had popped and turned the three Stooges into amoebas (I haven't forgot Kadohata, the worst offender for me because I was actually warming up to her)

Instead, they live and stay on board while Janeway (as painfully out of character as I think she's been in most of the TNG relaunch) is (apparently) killed off in this train-wreck of a book?

 

[Corran Horn]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Technobuilder said:
Honestly, I think a lot of the problems with 'Before Dishonor' are contingent upon the fact that it was written pretty much side by side with 'Q&A'.

It was left to 'Q&A' to really introduce the new crew characters and therefore define our initial impressions of them.

'Before Dishonor' being the follow-up book and coming out right on it's heels had to mean that both books were being fleshed out right on top of each other and as a result there is absolutely no resemblance between the characters of Kadohata & Leybenzon portrayed in 'Q&A' and little to none with T'Lana with those found in 'Before Dishonor'.

This isn't an excuse, but it's probably the closest thing to a realistic reason for why the characterizations are so drastically different we're ever going to get.

Sorry, but as you say, that's 'not our problem'. That's an editorial issue I'd think and it's sad that things ended up so muddled.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^ Yes, it's an editorial issue and that's why I think it's a bit unfair that Peter David get's all the heat, when the person to blame IMO would be the editor, Margaret Clark. If she want's the books to come out so close together, she's the one to make sure that all three authors work with the best possible information on how to characterize the new characters. I'm not sure why she hasn't done this, since she obviously wasn't overly preoccupied with coming up with original new story elements, either.