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Violent Protests in Baltimore

Is the violence by Baltimore Protestors Justified?


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I think the biggest problem here is the claim to as who is the biggest victim when in reality both sides are a problem. The police are doing their job and in the vast majority of the cases the subjects of police brutality are in fact doing the WRONG thing and breaking the law, however, the police often do the wrong thing and overreact.

:lol: "Both sides."

Which side has the blessing of the public? Which side is endowed with the legal authority to kill? Which side frequently abuses these privileges in order to brutalize and kill people? Which side almost always gets away with it?

People are sick of it, and rightly so.

Overarching in all this is the fact the violence and crime are generally down in the last few few decades, and the fact that these cases are more highly publicized than they have been in the past makes a point for social advancement, though the perception is that more of these things are happening and we are going to Hell in a handbasket so to speak.
Of course, no one said "we are going to Hell in a handbasket," but thanks for the hand-wringing strawman.


Actually if you look at social media that's exactly what people are saying .

Yes, "both sides". The criminals like to say: "oh woe is me my rights are infringed upon", when they are clearly in the wrong also, but there is no doubt police are often overreacting. If you're going to break the law then you are going to come up against more of these cases. However, I'm all for cases of brutality being handled outside and independently, so you don't have the police brotherhood closing ranks on misconduct. Having said that, I think a certain amount of force is often necessary, it's up to courts to decide how much is too much, and this is the case regardless of the color of skin and so on.

Most of the sensible people on social media agree that the cops responsible for gray's death deserve to go on trial but they aren't going out of their way to excuse the violence either. Of course the idealogues on both sides are spinning this the way their favorite news outlets are telling them too but that's par for the course every time something like this happens.
 
I do agree that the protesters have much to be angry and outraged about. There has been some excellent info shared here and in the other thread in TNZ concerning past and present incidents. I've learned much, but am the first to admit I don't know where to begin to offer a solution.

That being said, I just can't agree with some of the methods of protest seen in Baltimore and other cities as of late, IMO.

Peaceful assembly, yes. Looting, setting fires to stores and homes, throwing cinder blocks at firefighters, bottles and rocks at the police....sorry....that's criminal activity, not peaceful protest.
 
Excellent link, with credit to Emilia:

There’s something that needs to be cleared up: the civil-rights movement was not successful because the quiet dignity of nonviolent protests appealed to the morality of the white public. Nonviolent direct action, a staple employed by many organizations during the civil-rights movement, was and is a much more sophisticated tactic. Organizers found success when nonviolent protests were able to provoke white violence, either by ordinary citizens or police, and images of that brutality were transmitted across the country and the rest of the world. The pictures of bloodied bodies standing in nonviolent defiance of the law horrified people at home and proved embarrassing for the country in a global context.

So anyone who calls for protestors to remain “peaceful,” like the civil-rights activists of old, must answer this question: What actions should be taken when America refuses to be ashamed? Images of black death are proliferating beyond our capacity to tell each story, yet there remains no tipping point in sight—no moment when white people in America will say, “Enough.” And no amount of international outrage diminishes the US’s reputation to the point of challenging its status as a hegemonic superpower.
 
But even that article recognizes how rioting is seen, Robert.

And it points out the success of the civil rights movement was done with provocation of white on black.
My image of the perfect protest is of hundreds of people sitting in the street, silent as the dead they seek to protest for. They say no slogans, only holding up signs like so many tombstones that bear the legend, "My life matters too." If the police start something, it is visible immediately. In the age of smartphones and cameras on the corners, all you'd need is a couple of raw shots of a police officer trying to provoke someone into a fight. But if that person doesn't move and goes limp... the protesters win by default.
 
ETA: Robert already got it.

Fact: black fathers spend more time with their kids than white fathers do. Try again .

Link? Data? Curious to see what drives this assertion.


http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/16/3175831/myth-absent-black-father/

Myth: Black Fathers Aren't Involved In Their Children's Lives

Recent data published by the Center for Disease Control reveal that African-American fathers spend more time in their children's day-to-day lives than dads from other racial groups, defying stereotypes about black fatherhood. The Pew Research Center has found similar evidence that black dads don't differ from white dads in any significant way, and that there isn't the expected disparity found in so many other reports. Although black fathers are more likely to live in separate households, Pew estimates that 67 percent of black dads who don’t live with their kids see them at least once a month, compared to 59 percent of white dads and just 32 percent of Hispanic dads.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/13/black-fatherhood-statistics_n_5491980.html
Defying enduring stereotypes about black fatherhood, a federal survey of American parents shows that by most measures, black fathers who live with their children are just as involved as other dads who live with their kids — or more so.

For instance, among fathers who lived with young children, 70% of black dads said they bathed, diapered or dressed those kids every day, compared with 60% of white fathers and 45% of Latino fathers, according to a report released Friday by the National Center for Health Statistics.

Nearly 35% of black fathers who lived with their young children said they read to them daily, compared with 30% of white dads and 22% of Latino dads. The report was based on a federal survey that included more than 3,900 fathers between 2006 and 2010 — a trove of data seen as the gold standard for studying fatherhood in the United States. In many cases, the differences between black fathers and those of other races were not statistically significant, researchers said.


http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/20/local/la-me-black-dads-20131221
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr071.pdf
 
Those numbers are encouragin. Id like to see the statistics for black, or white for that matter, children who live in the Inner city. It's probably more of a socio-economic problem than a race problem.

Well, not exactly encouraging, I'd like to see them higher across the board.
 
I'm going to just leave this here, via Mother Jones:

Martin Luther King said:
Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today's riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, 'If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.'

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society.

Applies just as much to class dynamics, too (most of America's racial dynamics are after all the result of trying to keep the majority of blacks as a permanent underclass).
 
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There's a consistent history of unhelpful people telling repressed folks that what they're doing "isn't the answer" yet they never seem to say what they think the answer is. Pretty convenient position to be in.

You mean like this guy...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/ray-lewis-calls-peace-baltimore-riots-article-1.2202056


You must be very disappointed in those people. :lol:

Little to do with racism?
Are you really saying black people and white people are equally treated terribly by cops who believe the public to be "the enemy"?
You don't think there might be a tiny bit* of an imbalance there?





* "tiny"

Aren't you European? What do you really know about being white (let alone black) in America? You're awfully opinionated for someone who is not from the states and is not really vested in the problem.
 
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But even that article recognizes how rioting is seen, Robert.

And it points out the success of the civil rights movement was done with provocation of white on black.
My image of the perfect protest is of hundreds of people sitting in the street, silent as the dead they seek to protest for. They say no slogans, only holding up signs like so many tombstones that bear the legend, "My life matters too." If the police start something, it is visible immediately. In the age of smartphones and cameras on the corners, all you'd need is a couple of raw shots of a police officer trying to provoke someone into a fight. But if that person doesn't move and goes limp... the protesters win by default.

We already have videos of cops gunning down black men and not many seem to really care. Do you think they'd really care if police roughed up protesters?
 
Where are the Second Amendment advocates in all this? Gray was arrested for possession of a switchblade.
 
But even that article recognizes how rioting is seen, Robert.

And it points out the success of the civil rights movement was done with provocation of white on black.
My image of the perfect protest is of hundreds of people sitting in the street, silent as the dead they seek to protest for. They say no slogans, only holding up signs like so many tombstones that bear the legend, "My life matters too." If the police start something, it is visible immediately. In the age of smartphones and cameras on the corners, all you'd need is a couple of raw shots of a police officer trying to provoke someone into a fight. But if that person doesn't move and goes limp... the protesters win by default.

We already have videos of cops gunning down black men and not many seem to really care. Do you think they'd really care if police roughed up protesters?

Are you talking about the cop gunning down that guy in South Carolina? Because I, and every conservative/libertarian or whatever you want to label me as, is outraged by that.

As far as roughing up protesters, no I would not approve of that. Now the rioters and looters? Have at em
 

You must be very disappointed in those people. :lol:
It's been explained to you a dozen times or more in this thread that empathizing does not mean encouraging, and that understanding does not mean approving. You have continued to use strawman arguments to mischaracterize other posters. It's obvious that you're not making this argument in good faith but are just trying to get a rise out of people by saying they want violence.

Therefore, you have received an infraction for trolling. Comment to PM.
 
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