Violent Protests in Baltimore

[{ Emilia }]

I just found this quote and I can't disagree.

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

– Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic

 

[Robert Maxwell]

There is a cultural problem with our police forces and I personally think it has little to do with racism and more to do with the fact that most cops look at the public as the enemy.

Little to do with racism?
Are you really saying black people and white people are equally treated terribly by cops who believe the public to be "the enemy"?
You don't think there might be a tiny bit* of an imbalance there?





* "tiny"

Well black people commit crimes at a much higher rate than other races so there are obviously going to be more run in with police and more instances of abuse. Especially in inner cities. But the real problem is the military, as opposed to civil service, mindset of cops. Like I've said before in this thread, ending the war on drugs would go a long way.

You do realize those kinds of statistics are a feedback loop, right?

It's easy to produce numbers that indicate black people commit more crimes because police pay extra attention to them. Police spend more time going after black people and thus the numbers reflect this.

I guarantee if you put those same cops in a white neighborhood and held them to the same kinds of behavior, you'd see a "spike" in crime in that area, too, only because there are more cops around looking for crime, and looking for reasons to bust people. This doesn't happen in practice because cops know they can get away with fucking over black people, and not so much with white people.

It was also stated that ending the War on Drugs would not stop the persecution of black people. I am inclined to agree. Cops would indeed find other pretexts for arrest. Jaywalking, loitering, and weapons charges seem to be the favorites these days (apart from drug charges, of course.)

We're talking about a country where black people get cited for loitering on their own front porch.

This is not a just system. Not even close.

 

[{ Emilia }]

What RobMax said. Black people don't just have "more run-ins" with the police because "they have a higher crime rate" (like Tiger Devil Dog claims) but also because police go after them a lot more creating that feedback loop.

In addition to that it seems whenever there is an actual "run-in" cops treat black people differently from white people.
To give you a random example. There all these stupid Youtube videos of American gun lovers open-carrying their guns in front of police stations just to see what kind of response they get. Then they argue with the police officers who might feel threatened and yell something about the constitution.
Try doing that as a black guy.

Isn't it funny how the media focuses on the few violent male protesters but never mentions stuff like this?
Many organizers at the forefront of protests are women, despite men taking center stage

I guess these people don't look scary enough for the media:

I don't want to keep spamming links in this thread but here's something else to consider for the OP:

So anyone who calls for protestors to remain “peaceful,” like the civil-rights activists of old, must answer this question: What actions should be taken when America refuses to be ashamed? Images of black death are proliferating beyond our capacity to tell each story, yet there remains no tipping point in sight—no moment when white people in America will say, “Enough.” And no amount of international outrage diminishes the US’s reputation to the point of challenging its status as a hegemonic superpower.

What change will a “peaceful” protest spark if a “peaceful” protest is so easy to ignore?

It’s not only ahistorical to suggest that “riots” have never been useful in the quest for social justice, it is impractical to believe that the exact same tactics of movements past can be applied today. The politics of our time are different, so must be our social justice movements.

Does that mean “riots” are the answer? No one knows. If the anger of a people denied humanity and democracy is continually dismissed as lawlessness, perhaps these uprisings will prove only destructive. But if the people with the ability to change the system that produced this anger will only listen to the sound of shattering glass, then maybe this is the solution.

 

[Tiger Devil Dog]

guarantee if you put those same cops in a white neighborhood and held them to the same kinds of behavior, you'd see a "spike" in crime in that area, too, only because there are more cops around looking for crime, and looking for reasons to bust people. This doesn't happen in practice because cops know they can get away with fucking over black people, and not so much with white people

You can garauntee it? So all of the sudden just because cops showed up in a white neighborhood all of the father's would suddenly disappear, which is the real problem in inner city black communties, and gangs would form? All those kids would start murdering their neighbors?

It was also stated that ending the War on Drugs would not stop the persecution of black people. I am inclined to agree. Cops would indeed find other pretexts for arrest. Jaywalking, loitering, and weapons charges seem to be the favorites these days (apart from drug charges, of course.)

I disagree completely. Ending the war on drugs would cause there to be a massive decrease in police department budgets. That means less cops. Less cops means that the ones still on the job would be forced to fight real crime. But it's not just the war on drugs, our process for recruiting, screening and training cops must be overhauled.

We're talking about a country where black people get cited for loitering on their own front porch.

Sooooo many stereotypes in that sentence.

 

[Jedi_Master]

So all of the sudden just because cops showed up in a white neighborhood all of the father's would suddenly disappear, which is the real problem in inner city black communities, and gangs would form?


Sooooo many stereotypes in that sentence.

These two comments being placed with a blissful lack of awareness in one post made me laugh.

 

[Tiger Devil Dog]

Little to do with racism?
Are you really saying black people and white people are equally treated terribly by cops who believe the public to be "the enemy"?
You don't think there might be a tiny bit* of an imbalance there?





* "tiny"

Well black people commit crimes at a much higher rate than other races so there are obviously going to be more run in with police and more instances of abuse. Especially in inner cities. But the real problem is the military, as opposed to civil service, mindset of cops. Like I've said before in this thread, ending the war on drugs would go a long way.

You do realize those kinds of statistics are a feedback loop, right?

It's easy to produce numbers that indicate black people commit more crimes because police pay extra attention to them. Police spend more time going after black people and thus the numbers reflect this.

I guarantee if you put those same cops in a white neighborhood and held them to the same kinds of behavior, you'd see a "spike" in crime in that area, too, only because there are more cops around looking for crime, and looking for reasons to bust people. This doesn't happen in practice because cops know they can get away with fucking over black people, and not so much with white people.

It was also stated that ending the War on Drugs would not stop the persecution of black people. I am inclined to agree. Cops would indeed find other pretexts for arrest. Jaywalking, loitering, and weapons charges seem to be the favorites these days (apart from drug charges, of course.)

We're talking about a country where black people get cited for loitering on their own front porch.

This is not a just system. Not even close.

So all of the sudden just because cops showed up in a white neighborhood all of the father's would suddenly disappear, which is the real problem in inner city black communities, and gangs would form?


Sooooo many stereotypes in that sentence.

These two comments being placed with a blissful lack of awareness in one post made me laugh.

Are you saying that most black inner cities grow up in two parent households? Or that children who grow up in singke parent households aren't more likely to commit crimes?

 

[Jedi_Master]

TDD - you may wish to wade through This entire document but I think you will find page 16 very insightful. I suggest you read that information.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

guarantee if you put those same cops in a white neighborhood and held them to the same kinds of behavior, you'd see a "spike" in crime in that area, too, only because there are more cops around looking for crime, and looking for reasons to bust people. This doesn't happen in practice because cops know they can get away with fucking over black people, and not so much with white people

You can garauntee it? So all of the sudden just because cops showed up in a white neighborhood all of the father's would suddenly disappear, which is the real problem in inner city black communties, and gangs would form? All those kids would start murdering their neighbors?

Fact: black fathers spend more time with their kids than white fathers do. Try again.

It was also stated that ending the War on Drugs would not stop the persecution of black people. I am inclined to agree. Cops would indeed find other pretexts for arrest. Jaywalking, loitering, and weapons charges seem to be the favorites these days (apart from drug charges, of course.)

I disagree completely. Ending the war on drugs would cause there to be a massive decrease in police department budgets. That means less cops. Less cops means that the ones still on the job would be forced to fight real crime. But it's not just the war on drugs, our process for recruiting, screening and training cops must be overhauled.

I don't think you know anything about how government agencies work. They never shrink willingly. Police departments won't, either. They'll find any way they can to justify their budgets, and in black neighborhoods that means making up reasons to arrest people if they have to. Hell, they already do that. They'd just do it more.

We're talking about a country where black people get cited for loitering on their own front porch.

Sooooo many stereotypes in that sentence.

What stereotype? It's true. It happens.

 

[cooleddie74]

The various large corporations and interests that control much of the media in the United States don't have any fiscal interest in discussing the truth. They want people to be content and distracted, eager to purchase things that make them forget about the reality around them.

It's almost a They Live! meme but the major corporations have been trying to make us conform and squelching a lot of debate on major issues over the years. The only way they'll encourage more of it is if it can be demonstrated to their corporate boards and chairmen that vigorous and loud discussion of the serious issues in our country and the world at-large are profitable to them. If they can make money off of something you can be sure they'll pimp and sell that thing to the very edge of the universe and back and make certain we see and hear about it a hundred times each day.

Right now they distract us with fluff and inanity because that's what too many of us care about. Every time a celebrity does something "controversial" or there's a bullshit non-story about language on a television show, song lyrics or a flashed breast at the Super Bowl halftime show the corporations win.

 

[Jedi_Master]

A happy populace buys things and doesn't question the status quo. So it would be in the interests of those selling things to keep everybody happy.

 

[cooleddie74]

As it is in most societies. We just happen to be the loudest and most obnoxious much of the time. It's in the best interests of the average person to question what they see on the news but, hey, can't do that. Don't have time.

The new Sonic Mega-Super-Galaxyburger™ with eighteen different kinds of cheese, four pounds of buffalo wing sauce and a free side order of Oxycontin Fries is on sale!

 

[Timby]

We're talking about a country where black people get cited for loitering on their own front porch.

Sooooo many stereotypes in that sentence.

What stereotype? It's true. It happens.

A'yup. Witnessed with my own eyes in the year I lived in Baltimore.

 

[Jedi_Master]

As it is in most societies. We just happen to be the loudest and most obnoxious much of the time. It's in the best interests of the average person to question what they see on the news but, hey, can't do that. Don't have time.

The new Sonic Mega-Super-Galaxyburger™ with eighteen different kinds of cheese, four pounds of buffalo wing sauce and a free side order of Oxycontin Fries is on sale!

and if you "like" Sonic™ on Facebook then you get a $.50 coupon in exchange for giving them all your personal information, your list of friends, access to your search history, and the eternal servitude of your youngest child.

Seems like a good deal to me.

Oh those scary black people are rioting again... sigh... when will they ever learn to behave?

 

[cooleddie74]

Sounds like they just need to taste the new Sonic Mega-Super-Galaxyburger™!

 

[BillJ]

I just found this quote and I can't disagree.

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

– Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic

Thanks for the link. I used it in another forum I frequent.

 

[Tiger Devil Dog]

TDD - you may wish to wade through This entire document but I think you will find page 16 very insightful. I suggest you read that information.

Will read when I get some time this afternoon

 

[Jedi_Master]

TDD - you may wish to wade through This entire document but I think you will find page 16 very insightful. I suggest you read that information.

Will read when I get some time this afternoon

Good - it may help you clear up some misconceptions.

 

[BillJ]

TDD - you may wish to wade through This entire document but I think you will find page 16 very insightful. I suggest you read that information.

Will read when I get some time this afternoon

Good - it may help you clear up some misconceptions.

Probably not. It's published by the gubmint.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I guarantee if you put those same cops in a white neighborhood and held them to the same kinds of behavior, you'd see a "spike" in crime in that area, too, only because there are more cops around looking for crime, and looking for reasons to bust people. This doesn't happen in practice because cops know they can get away with fucking over black people, and not so much with white people.

I think it really depends on what kind of white neighborhood you'd be speaking of. Mainly because I don't think it's that they purposely hang out in neighborhoods of specific color, but of specific income. And that type of poverty happens to correlate with more blacks/Hispanics, and less whites/Asians. Sure, maybe you could go find a trailer park or something where there are mostly poor whites, but I'm pretty sure the cops already do that. And the police seem to only really enforce the blue collar types of crimes. If they were to go into neighborhoods with higher income, the most they could expect is to maybe give traffic tickets, and that would be the spike.

 

[RAMA]

I think the biggest problem here is the claim to as who is the biggest victim when in reality both sides are a problem. The police are doing their job and in the vast majority of the cases the subjects of police brutality are in fact doing the WRONG thing and breaking the law, however, the police often do the wrong thing and overreact.

"Both sides."

Which side has the blessing of the public? Which side is endowed with the legal authority to kill? Which side frequently abuses these privileges in order to brutalize and kill people? Which side almost always gets away with it?

People are sick of it, and rightly so.

Overarching in all this is the fact the violence and crime are generally down in the last few few decades, and the fact that these cases are more highly publicized than they have been in the past makes a point for social advancement, though the perception is that more of these things are happening and we are going to Hell in a handbasket so to speak.

Of course, no one said "we are going to Hell in a handbasket," but thanks for the hand-wringing strawman.

Actually if you look at social media that's exactly what people are saying .

Yes, "both sides". The criminals like to say: "oh woe is me my rights are infringed upon", when they are clearly in the wrong also, but there is no doubt police are often overreacting. If you're going to break the law then you are going to come up against more of these cases. However, I'm all for cases of brutality being handled outside and independently, so you don't have the police brotherhood closing ranks on misconduct. Having said that, I think a certain amount of force is often necessary, it's up to courts to decide how much is too much, and this is the case regardless of the color of skin and so on.