Violent Protests in Baltimore

[fonzob1]

There is no question that the police in Baltimore did something wrong, and there should be repercussions, but these protesters defeat their own purpose by using violence. Take a page out of Gandhi's book. How can you promote civil rights when you violate the rights of others using violence and looting? If the police are your target, why are you "martyring" them by seriously injuring them and damaging their property? This makes the police the victims and draws public attention away from the real issue. Try peaceful protest instead.

BALTIMORE (AP) - Rioters looted stores and hurled rocks and bricks at Baltimore police Monday, injuring seven officers just hours after thousands mourned the man who died after suffering a severe spinal injury in police custody.

Seven officers were hurt. Some had broken bones, and one was "unresponsive," said Baltimore police Capt. Eric Kowalczyk.
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http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/0...e-mall-met-by-police-in-riot-gear-113555.html

 

[clint g]

This is exactly why cops wear scary looking armor and armored vehicles at protests.

 

[Amaris]

There is no question that the police in Baltimore did something wrong, and there should be repercussions, but these protesters defeat their own purpose by using violence. Take a page out of Ghandi's book. How can you promote civil rights when you violate the rights of others using violence and looting? If the police are your target, why are you "martyring" them by seriously injuring them and damaging their property? This makes the police the victims and draws public attention away from the real issue. Try peaceful protest instead.

BALTIMORE (AP) - Rioters looted stores and hurled rocks and bricks at Baltimore police Monday, injuring seven officers just hours after thousands mourned the man who died after suffering a severe spinal injury in police custody.

Seven officers were hurt. Some had broken bones, and one was "unresponsive," said Baltimore police Capt. Eric Kowalczyk.
​

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/0...e-mall-met-by-police-in-riot-gear-113555.html

Because most of these people are tired of getting beaten down and ignored. Certainly, there are some there just to start shit and steal, but can't you imagine what it would be like to see your brothers, your sisters, your fathers, mothers, friends, all around you being arrested, or shot? Watch them being murdered, all the while the police just act like those same people deserved it?

It's easy to say "be like Ghandi" when you're not in any danger of being murdered simply for being scared; shot in the back because you were afraid. Attacked and left bleeding on the sidewalk because you looked "suspicious".

I'm not saying the violence is right, or that it solves a deeply fundamental problem in our so-called "justice" system, but I do understand why it's happening. These people are angry, they are fed up, and they are tired of crying out for help, only to get replies of "what about white people?" or "you probably deserved it."

Fuck, I'd break a damned window, too, if it meant getting people to finally pay attention.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

There is no question that the police in Baltimore did something wrong, and there should be repercussions, but these protesters defeat their own purpose by using violence. Take a page out of Ghandi's book. How can you promote civil rights when you violate the rights of others using violence and looting? If the police are your target, why are you "martyring" them by seriously injuring them and damaging their property? This makes the police the victims and draws public attention away from the real issue. Try peaceful protest instead.

It's Gandhi, and a different situation.

It's also very easy to lecture people with platitudes on how to react when you're safe at home and not facing imminent death or injury from corrupt, racist, or overzealous police. Obviously peaceful protest would be ideal, but it would also be nice if you could empathize with the frustration and fear and provocation that gives rise to violence instead of just saying "aww shucks guy, let's just play nice."

This is exactly why cops wear scary looking armor and armored vehicles at protests.

There were riots and protests prior to 9/11 when the redistribution of decommissioned military-grade vehicles, armor, and hardware to police began in earnest, and somehow police got by then.

Their presence exacerbates hostilities, instead of calming them, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy justifying the continued escalation of force.

 

[clint g]

There were riots and protests prior to 9/11 when the redistribution of decommissioned military-grade vehicles, armor, and hardware to police began in earnest, and somehow police got by then.

Their presence exacerbates hostilities, instead of calming them, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy justifying the continued escalation of force.

Tell that to the seven cops who were beat up and the cop in Fergurson who was shot through his helmet. Nope, I'd prefer my cops to be prepared and protected, thanks.

EDIT: Furthermore, only a complete fool would walk into Baltimore to break up that crowd without wearing full armor.

 

[BillJ]

There would be no U.S.A. without violent protests and outbursts. But I guess that's only acceptable when the protesters are white Christians.

 

[clint g]

There would be no U.S.A. without violent protests and outbursts. But I guess that's only acceptable when the protesters are white Christians.

So its okay to set fire to a CVS and then cut the fire hose when the Fire Department tries to put it out? Its okay to mace a CNN reporter and then try to steal his phone while blinded?

 

[fonzob1]

This is exactly why cops wear scary looking armor and armored vehicles at protests.

I am no fan of the police becoming "militarized," but violent protestors help give them justification for doing so.

Because most of these people are tired of getting beaten down and ignored. Certainly, there are some there just to start shit and steal, but can't you imagine what it would be like to see your brothers, your sisters, your fathers, mothers, friends, all around you being arrested, or shot? Watch them being murdered, all the while the police just act like those same people deserved it?

It's easy to say "be like Ghandi" when you're not in any danger of being murdered simply for being scared; shot in the back because you were afraid. Attacked and left bleeding on the sidewalk because you looked "suspicious".

I'm not saying the violence is right, or that it solves a deeply fundamental problem in our so-called "justice" system, but I do understand why it's happening. These people are angry, they are fed up, and they are tired of crying out for help, only to get replies of "what about white people?" or "you probably deserved it."

Fuck, I'd break a damned window, too, if it meant getting people to finally pay attention.

I definitely lack trust in law enforcement based on a slew of recent events and video evidence. Police officers are human beings capable of doing very good things as well as incredibly awful things. However, you make it sound as though there is a genocide occurring, which is just not accurate. I am not seeing the logic in robbing someone's private business to promote civil rights.

It's Gandhi, and a different situation.

Gandhi had a worse situation. His obstacles involved imperialism and people, in greater numbers, being outright slaughtered.

It's also very easy to lecture people with platitudes on how to react when you're safe at home and not facing imminent death or injury from corrupt, racist, or overzealous police.

What about facing imminent death or injury from protestors?

Obviously peaceful protest would be ideal, but it would also be nice if you could empathize with the frustration and fear and provocation that gives rise to violence instead of just saying "aww shucks guy, let's just play nice."

That is not what I said. So, are you justifying the violence?

There would be no U.S.A. without violent protests and outbursts. But I guess that's only acceptable when the protesters are white Christians.

Several of the people involved in the Baltimore protests are white Christians.

 

[BillJ]

There would be no U.S.A. without violent protests and outbursts. But I guess that's only acceptable when the protesters are white Christians.

So its okay to set fire to a CVS and then cut the fire hose when the Fire Department tries to put it out? Its okay to mace a CNN reporter and then try to steal his phone while blinded?

I think the situation outright sucks.

But would anyone give a damn if they got together and sung Kumbaya?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

EDIT: Furthermore, only a complete fool would walk into Baltimore to break up that crowd without wearing full armor.

I have no issue with using riot shields and helmets for crowd control when violence is imminent or ongoing. That's proper application of the use of force continuum.

I have a problem with the guys that start off in full camo body armor carrying M4s riding on MRAPs like they're rolling through Fallujah. Where do you go with an assault rifle and armored vehicle but an escalation to violence?

 

[clint g]

EDIT: Furthermore, only a complete fool would walk into Baltimore to break up that crowd without wearing full armor.

I have no issue with using riot shields and helmets for crowd control when violence is imminent or ongoing. That's proper application of the use of force continuum.

I have a problem with the guys that start off in full camo body armor carrying M4s riding on MRAPs like they're rolling through Fallujah. Where do you go with an assault rifle and armored vehicle but an escalation to violence?

Its funny you mention the MRAPs. The MRAP would hold up to bricks ALOT better than the police cars that are currently wrecked along the roads. Though that being said, the Baltimore PD did exactly what you asked, and look what happened.

EDIT:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/27/us/baltimore-unrest/index.html

I would ask you to look at the video labeled "riots erupt in baltimore" where you can see police using an armored vehicle to try and reach wrecked police car and attempt to help whoever may be in there. Thats why they need armored vehicles. As for M4s, lets hope we don't need a demonstration as to why that may be needed in a riot. All it takes is ONE person in that crowd with a rifle.

There would be no U.S.A. without violent protests and outbursts. But I guess that's only acceptable when the protesters are white Christians.

So its okay to set fire to a CVS and then cut the fire hose when the Fire Department tries to put it out? Its okay to mace a CNN reporter and then try to steal his phone while blinded?

I think the situation outright sucks.

But would anyone give a damn if they got together and sung Kumbaya?

I think that will work better than burning your own city to the ground.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Fonz, until today, the protests were mostly peaceful. Even last night, when there was violence near the stadium, some of the peaceful protestors were actively trying to stop the violent ones. Today's violence is mostly juveniles. I'm willing to bet that they barely understand what Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. really stood for. He's ancient history to them. They certainly have no idea what Gandhian non-violence is! And they're angry, very angry, and out of control. I'm not justifying their violence at all, just saying that your expectations are unrealistic.

 

[fonzob1]

Fonz, until today, the protests were mostly peaceful. Even last night, when there was violence near the stadium, some of the peaceful protestors were actively trying to stop the violent ones. Today's violence is mostly juveniles. I'm willing to bet that they barely understand what Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. really stood for. He's ancient history to them. They certainly have no idea what Gandhian non-violence is! And they're angry, very angry, and out of control. I'm not justifying their violence at all, just saying that your expectations are unrealistic.

I didn't express an expectation. I expressed an idea.

Whoever these protestors are, the education system and/or their parents have failed them.

Are the posters on this board, who justify the violence, juveniles as well?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Gandhi had a worse situation. His obstacles involved imperialism and people, in greater numbers, being outright slaughtered.

Doesn't matter. It's a completely different time, location, and context, and it's simplistic thinking to believe that what worked in one place means it will work the same everywhere else.

What about facing imminent death or injury from protestors?

So you're comparing police doing their jobs to civilians being victimized by corrupt and racist police?

So, are you justifying the violence?

That's a stupid response, but unfortunately always one that comes up in these discussions.

No, or I wouldn't have just said in the part you quoted that peaceful protest would be ideal. I just empathize with the frustration, fear, and desperation that gives rise to violence, and don't think simplistic lectures of the sort you were saying are very realistic.

Though that being said, the Baltimore PD did exactly what you asked, and look what happened.

You weren't talking about this situation specifically. You were justifying the use of armored vehicles and military hardware in general, and my response was to that.

 

[BillJ]

Whoever these protestors are, the education system and/or their parents have failed them.

I'd also count the justice system. Many of these problems exist because white police officers can't leave their disdain for black people at home.

 

[clint g]

You weren't talking about this situation specifically. You were justifying the use of armored vehicles and military hardware in general, and my response was to that.

And I would counter your response with a statement of your own.
You said

There were riots and protests prior to 9/11 when the redistribution of decommissioned military-grade vehicles, armor, and hardware to police began in earnest, and somehow police got by then.

Your absolutely correct. There WERE riots prior to cops getting this equipment. So what does that mean? The equipment isn't the cause. Its simply shitty people acting like assholes. The lessons learned from the Crown Heights Riots, LA Riots and a whole host of others is exactly why cops use armored vehicles and wear those scary looking suits.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

^ If they were a direct reaction to the LA, Watts, Crown Heights, or other riots, the vehicles, armor, and heavy weapons would have been distributed immediately after those incidents. No, they were part of the general security overreaction following 9/11, the military/industrial complex expanding to include privatization of law enforcement and logistics, and an abundance of armored vehicles being produced for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that could then trickle down to local law enforcement —most of which have no logical need for the vehicles they received.

Whoever these protestors are, the education system and/or their parents have failed them.

Are the posters on this board, who justify the violence, juveniles as well?

I'd disabuse yourself of this line of thought quickly lest it backfire.

 

[fonzob1]

Doesn't matter. It's a completely different time, location, and context, and it's simplistic thinking to believe that what worked in one place means it will work the same everywhere else.

I disagree. I don't think Gandhi's wisdom is limited to a certain time and place.

So you're comparing police doing their jobs to civilians being victimized by corrupt and racist police?

Not at all what I said. Protestors looting and otherwise performing acts of voilence are a danger to not only the police but business owners and other residents...

That's a stupid response, but unfortunately always one that comes up in these discussions.

I don't agree that I provided you with a stupid response. I asked you a question that was appropriate based on your comments.

No, or I wouldn't have just said in the part you quoted that peaceful protest would be ideal. I just empathize with the frustration, fear, and desperation that gives rise to violence, and don't think simplistic lectures of the sort you were saying are very realistic.

Realistic... I love that word.

I'd also count the justice system. Many of these problems exist because white police officers can't leave their disdain for black people at home.

I completely agree with you. While police brutality is not limited to one race, it is more prevalent in certain racial communities.

 

[fonzob1]

Whoever these protestors are, the education system and/or their parents have failed them.

Are the posters on this board, who justify the violence, juveniles as well?

I'd disabuse yourself of this line of thought quickly lest it backfire.

It was a valid question. There was no abuse associated with it.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Whoever these protestors are, the education system and/or their parents have failed them.

Are the posters on this board, who justify the violence, juveniles as well?

I'd disabuse yourself of this line of thought quickly lest it backfire.

It was a valid question. There was no abuse associated with it.

That's not what disabuse means.

And no, implying that people are a) advocating violence when they aren't, b) the products of failed parenting, and c) juvenile is not a valid question.