Have you actually seen the movie?
Star Trek: Insurrection said:
The fact that you cannot even admit that Picard made a tactical error, shows me that you have some type of weird hero worship going on.
Villains of Star Trek
- Thread starter BillJ
- Start date
Have you actually seen the movie?
The fact that you cannot even admit that Picard made a tactical error, shows me that you have some type of weird hero worship going on.
Yes, I have, but you have obviously not seen the end.
If Dougherty, a man who would be court-martialed if he had survived, is right, how come the Son'a peacefully unite with their parents at the end of the movie? Perhaps it is necessary to extract the radiation, who knows. Perhaps it is done after the events of the movie but in a peaceful, cooperative fashion.
If Doughtery and Ru'afo are your heroes you have indeed a strange hero worship going on. But I am glad that you showed once again your true colours. You even play the advocate of criminals and mass murderers to bash Picard which is pretty sick. While you revel in senseless violence the normal folks will advocate what Star Trek always preaches, finding peaceful and cooperative solutions to problems.
If Dougherty, a man who would be court-martialed if he had survived, is right, how come the Son'a peacefully unite with their parents at the end of the movie? Perhaps it is necessary to extract the radiation, who knows. Perhaps it is done after the events of the movie but in a peaceful, cooperative fashion.
If Doughtery and Ru'afo are your heroes you have indeed a strange hero worship going on. But I am glad that you showed once again your true colours. You even play the advocate of criminals and mass murderers to bash Picard which is pretty sick. While you revel in senseless violence the normal folks will advocate what Star Trek always preaches, finding peaceful and cooperative solutions to problems.
So you think those ten S'ona conquered two races by themselves? Okay...
I love the hyperbole you always interject into your answers. There are numerous occasions where things worked out for Jim Kirk, but it doesn't mean the way he got there made any sense. That's what I'm pointing out here... Picard made a tactical error believing that Dougherty alone could hold off the S'ona while he sent the Enterprise away and hid the Ba'ku. Whether you like it or not, your hero miscalculated and it nearly cost a bunch of people their lives, Ba'ku and Starfleet alike.
The guy in a leather jacket is not my hero but he is the hero of a pretty simple-minded movie. Given that he took weapons, transporter inhibitors and so on with him he did at least consider the option of Ru'afo and the Feds engaging in more decisive actions. I don't see that he anticipated a split between the two or that he correctly judged how violent Ru'afo actually is. A lot of uncertainty doesn't imply that doing nothing is the best way to proceed.
Whether you like it or not, Ru'afo might have stabbed Dougherty in the back and killed the Ba'ku if Picard had not interfered.
The main point of the movie was that despite all their love of technology the Son'a did not consider the health effects of the planet they are living on. Instead of simply returning home they tried to extract these effects and put it into a medical product, a procedure that was definitely not guaranteed to work. While the reasonable Son'a would have most likely provided the Ba'ku with the medicine (which might by the way work like vitamins, eating crap and a bunch of vitamin pills is less healthy than simply eating your vegetables and fruits; if you extract something another thing which also does the trick might get lost) in some form of feudal relationship Ru'afo was out for revenge which implies a high likelihood of deportation meaning, as so often in history, death.
I am not saying that Picard did everything right, how could he without having all the information and, as you pointed out, being inflicted by the radiation of the planet. All I am saying is that what he has done was far better than idly standing by and tolerating that the Federation and the Son'a commit a horrible crime. You do not even admit that deporting a people and killing them, directly or indirectly via letting them rot in some god-forsaken corner of the galaxy, is a crime. If you stopped to side with Dougherty and Ru'afo, a criminal and a mass murderer, I will of course apologize for all my nasty hyperbole. As long as you don't I will call siding with a mass murderer siding with a mass murderer.
Let me ask you a simple question, do you think annexation of Ba'ku and deportation of its inhabitants is a better course of action than reunification of Ba'ku and Son'a and a cooperative solution concerning the health of the Son'a, the future of their two societies and the future of their planet, potentially with Federation assistance but without the Feds being in command?
Whether you like it or not, Ru'afo might have stabbed Dougherty in the back and killed the Ba'ku if Picard had not interfered.
The main point of the movie was that despite all their love of technology the Son'a did not consider the health effects of the planet they are living on. Instead of simply returning home they tried to extract these effects and put it into a medical product, a procedure that was definitely not guaranteed to work. While the reasonable Son'a would have most likely provided the Ba'ku with the medicine (which might by the way work like vitamins, eating crap and a bunch of vitamin pills is less healthy than simply eating your vegetables and fruits; if you extract something another thing which also does the trick might get lost) in some form of feudal relationship Ru'afo was out for revenge which implies a high likelihood of deportation meaning, as so often in history, death.
I am not saying that Picard did everything right, how could he without having all the information and, as you pointed out, being inflicted by the radiation of the planet. All I am saying is that what he has done was far better than idly standing by and tolerating that the Federation and the Son'a commit a horrible crime. You do not even admit that deporting a people and killing them, directly or indirectly via letting them rot in some god-forsaken corner of the galaxy, is a crime. If you stopped to side with Dougherty and Ru'afo, a criminal and a mass murderer, I will of course apologize for all my nasty hyperbole. As long as you don't I will call siding with a mass murderer siding with a mass murderer.
Let me ask you a simple question, do you think annexation of Ba'ku and deportation of its inhabitants is a better course of action than reunification of Ba'ku and Son'a and a cooperative solution concerning the health of the Son'a, the future of their two societies and the future of their planet, potentially with Federation assistance but without the Feds being in command?
But why not put them with the Starfleet people in the unshielded portion of the ship if killing them is his endgame?
Eminent domain is what it is. Taking land from someone or group so a larger group can benefit. Is displacing a few people so a factory can be built and employ a thousand people like the few displaced wrong? One of the core tenets of a Federation founding world is "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". So the question you ask is this: will moving the Ba'ku improve the lives of a larger number of other inhabitants in the galaxy? I'd also say that property laws are on the side of the Federation on this one even though the Ba'ku are not citizens.
While I agree with moving the Ba'ku, the way Daugherty and Ru'afo go about it is idiotic. YMMV.
Throughout the movie, the Sona went out of their way to avoid harming the Baku. The holoship that was to be used to transport the Baku, was under Starfleet control. It was Starfleet that was going to be the ones to relocate the Baku, not the Sona.
Only the Starfleet personnel were to be moved to the lighty shielded rear of the ship, not the Baku.
Some of the Ba'ku were still on the planet though.
R'uafo -"This is going to end now. The Ba'ku want to stay on the planet. Let them. I'm going to launch the injector... In six hours, every living thing in this system will be dead or dying."
Dougherty -"If you begin the procedure while the planet's still populated, the Federation will pursue you..."
That's because Picard had them hiding near Kelvinite deposits. I think it finally pushed Ru'afo to the point that he needed to go forward with the procedure in order to survive...
Star Trek: Insurrection said:
Regardless of whether you agree with Daugherty, Picard was the one that put the Ba'ku in mortal danger.
I just don't buy that Ru'afo is doing this because he's sick or has a disease. Ru'afo wants to be immortal. His time has come because of his old age. Something will all have to deal with if we remain healthy all through our young lives. The way he handles getting old is very bad.
His finally angry blow up at Dougherty is pretty interesting. The fact that he says "everything in this system will be dead or dying" sounds rather suspicious to me, like it's not just the Ba'ku planet that is in danger. A system or solar system means a group of planets. Why didn't he just say the Ba'ku planet? Perhaps he didn't tell Starfleet everything about the dangers of what the injector will do. Is there life on those other planets in the system and what kind of negative effect will the injector have on them.
First attacking? Starting the particle harvesting was a last minute move of last resort.
And even then Ru'afo had told Doughterty that it would take six hours to kill everything on the planet, the Enterprise E arrived back at the planet before the thermolytic reaction started, plenty of time to remove the remaining five hundred Baku. No one had to die.
Unless Picard refused to remove them even then, so that their deaths could be used to make his personal point.
Yes, condemning many billions of Federation peoples, and all the Sona, to deaths that the particles could have prevented would be wrong.
And you obvious missed that it was too late for that, simply "moving in with their parents" wasn't going to save the Sona, their medical problems were too advanced for that to work.
It was never about killing their parents, the Sona wanted the Baku off the planet where they would be safe from the effects of harvesting the particles.
A single Sona, Gallatin (Gal'na), is shown meeting his mother, Gallatin will die without exposure to the harvested particles. Just being on the surface won't be enough. This is make quite clear.
After all the Sona were dead?
Going home to die is a "solution?"
Employing the Baku as "Human Shields" was the stupidest idea Picard ever had . The Baku were shown to be a fairly passive people, Picard never asked them what they wanted.
If they could build one collector, there is no reason they could build more ... if there's time before they all die.
The end of the movie spoke of a review by the Federation Council. In Journey's End, a episode similar to Insurrection in many ways, Admiral Necheyev request a review by the Federation Council, it came back in only three days, Picard was ordered to continue the mission.
Given the obvious medical advantages of the particles, it is likley the Council would direct the harvesting of the particle to continue.
What possible reason could there be not too?
How does this result in the particles being collected and distributed across the Federation? Which was the Federation's motivation, sole motivation, for harvesting the particles. The Baku/Sona little soap opera doesn't enter into it.
Actually, it was Picard and later Dougherty, who were violating the agreement. Or as Dougherty put it, the partnership. Again, even after the collector was activated, there would have been plenty of time to still remove the remaining Baku.
Why is it safe to assume this? Up through the very end of the movie, the Sona were going out of their way not to harm the Baku.
Now does Ru'afo's murder of Dougherty compare to Picard's deliberate endangerment of the Baku? No, but really they are both wrong, it's not one or the other ... both wrong.
One Sona, and unless he lasts ten years on the surface, he is going to die.
For what? For carrying out his assigned mission? True, he should have simply contact the the Baku and informed them to collect their belongings, they were going to be moved.
Tell them why, explain the benefits of wide spread availability of the particles to many billions of people.
Then beam their asses up and leave.
As expected you did not answer my question. In the cooperative solution which the end of the movie suggests it is perfectly possible to extract the radiation of the planet if its inhabitants decide to do so.
Standard economic logic suggests that if they do it themselves they will get a fair price for their product whereas in the colonial solution of the movie they get nothing. Like all forms of colonialism it basically theft.
About your eminent domain nonsense, the Ba'ku are neither Federation citizens nor are they informed or compensated.
Last time I checked governments have only authority over their citizens and information and compensation are essential features of eminent domain.
About Rua'afo's way being "idiotic", that's the euphemism of the month for planned genocide.
There's a couple of points I'd like to address here:
- Ru'afo, like anyone, is desperately clinging to life. Probably to an irrational extreme. The Ba'ku also want to be immortal or else they'd have told the Federation to come on in instead of hiding in the hills. Picard, like Daugherty, never asks the Ba'ku what they want, he merely begins issuing orders.
- If the Ba'ku had learned to coexist with the S'ona to begin with, there wouldn't be an issue. The Ba'ku occupy a small valley on an entire planet, yet couldn't share the world. They expelled the S'ona from it, which contrary to their Amish facade would indicate they had the power to expel them.
The entire movie is a clusterfuck of stupidity and makes a film like Battlefield: Earth look downright intelligent.
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Amidst all the nonsense you wrote I pick out this as it a blunt lie. The Son'a bomb the planet and kidnap Ba'ku long before the end of the movie. If memory serves the attack starts around the middle of the movie. Interesting that in all these INS discussion you always have to set the facts straight.Why is it safe to assume this? Up through the very end of the movie, the Sona were going out of their way not to harm the Baku.
Now does Ru'afo's murder of Dougherty compare to Picard's deliberate endangerment of the Baku? No, but really they are both wrong, it's not one or the other ... both wrong.
All your arguments about the Son'a dieing are based on one line from Dougherty. Now that's a man of integrity (in case you are not aware of why he is a criminal you might wanna spend some time on Starfleet rules, particularly the very first one).
But let's assume it is true, do you seriously believe that the Ba'ku would just idly stand by while their own children are doomed to die? As I try to emphasize all the time, a cooperative solution is possible. It is not necessary to kidnap and kill anybody to safe both societies and perhaps even harvest the radiation for the benefit of billions. That's the way of the Federation.
It's because of Gallatin. He says that for his benefit. Ru'afo knew he was starting to have second thoughts about the whole plan. This way it looks like he cares somewhat about the fate of the Ba'ku. There may have been other Son'a too, that weren't too keen on killing the Ba'ku outright.
The Ba'ku were being compensated with another planet. Which is usually how eminent domain works. The property owner is compensated with enough cash to buy another property of equal or lesser value.
Why do you insist on ignoring all but the last three minutes of the film?
The old game of fact checking.
SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.
Taking over the colony has little do with wanting to peacefully coexist. I view expelling them as pretty harsh but let's not confuse cause and effect, the So'na have been the ones who wanted to take over. Of course the obvious question would be, isn't there enough place on the planet? Couldn't the Son'a simply live somewhere else? Why is it necessary for them to start a revolution instead of a new society in another place and why is it necessary for the Ba'ku to banish them from the planet instead of just the village?
But that's something you can find in any movie, the background stuff is perfect in virtually no script.
Unlike you I am aware of the first rule of the Federation and I am aware that it is not an imperial or colonial power.
You forget that the Federation has no authority over the Ba'ku as they are not Federation citizens. Emiment domain is a bad analogy, colonial exploitation is far closer to the truth. It's not about the planet but the radiation. The Feds and the Son'a harvest all the benefits, the Ba'ku get nothing. Sounds like theft to me, hence my suggestion of a cooperative solution that involves neither kidnapping nor theft nor murder.
Note that at least in theory (sadly this doesn't happen in reality) resource rents should be totally taxed away as natural resources belong to everybody and not merely to the company who digs or pumps them up. This doesn't work here as there is a split between territory and citizenship so a fair solution would imply that the Ba'ku get at least a part of the resource rents, something that neither you nor the Federation intended to do.
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Yes. We also all agree that murder is wrong, yet there are situations where it is warranted. Even the holier-than-thou Federation still has the death penalty during TOS.
Sometimes life and principles just don't match up. To paraphrase Captain Spock, "even ethics must give way to reality". The Federation simply sits in "no mans land" in regards to the Ba'ku, damned if they move them, will be criticized if they leave them alone and they get slaughtered.
EDIT: You keep going on about right and wrong, but the fact of the matter is that Picard should've recused the Federation from the whole thing the moment he learned it was a blood feud. But if he'd done that, the Ba'ku would've been moved or executed and the planet stripped of the particles anyway. So Picard ignored the mighty Prime Directive when it no longer worked for him.
When you say "bomb the planet," you're referring to the Sona only firing on and destroying the transporter inhibitors, yes?
And by "kidnap" you're referring to the harmless beaming up of the Baku. Right?
Perhaps instead if kidnap, we can use the word "evict."
Just plain wrong there. If you horatio83 are present in a foreign country (and not a citizen) the local government does have authority over you (did you actually check?).
Picard: "A planet in Federation space."
Just plain wrong there. If you horatio83 are present in a foreign country (and not a citizen) the local government does have authority over you (did you actually check?).
Picard: "A planet in Federation space."
Like I said in another thread, if he inherited property in another country, the property is still bound by the laws of said country. Regardless of his citizenship.
During the bombing Ba'ku are harmed. There are no "smart bombs", no bombing without collateral damage.When you say "bomb the planet," you're referring to the Sona only firing on and destroying the transporter inhibitors, yes?
And by "kidnap" you're referring to the harmless beaming up of the Baku. Right?
Perhaps instead if kidnap, we can use the word "evict."
Just plain wrong there. If you horatio83 are present in a foreign country (and not a citizen) the local government does have authority over you (did you actually check?).
Picard: "A planet in Federation space."
If you are evicted you are informed first, the Ba'ku are kidnapped without their knowledge.
Of course if you visit foreign countries you are subject to their laws.
We talk about eminent domain and it is obvious that it only applies to citizens.
In INS we have the case of a planet that lies in Federation space yet its inhabitants are not Federation citizens.
I just elaborated via my point about resource rents that you guys don't advocate that the Ba'ku are treated like Federation citizens (while prefering a cooperative solution I'd be relatively fine with this second best option) but that you actually advocate that they are exploited.
Your eminent domain explanation would only work if three conditions were satisfied. First, the Feds know that the Ba'ku are a warp civilization, second, they talk with them and explain what they are up to and third, they discuss with them the new planet they get and their fair share of the resource rents plus a strong insurance contract. After all the procedure could fail and then the Ba'ku would start to rot like the Son'a.
As the movies stands the Feds simply violate the Prime Directive as they believe it is a pre-warp civilization. Furthermore they basically don't give a sh*t about the health of the Ba'ku, Dougherty says something about them not being meant to be immortal which means he is totally fine with letting them rot on some god-forsaken planet. He could even rationalize it with the PD (after first having violated it), after all they are pre-warp, you can't just simply provide them with medicine.
I disagree with you here, the petty little spat between the Baku and the Sona was none of the Federation's business, but the Federation out and out owned the particles.
The suggestion (elsewhere) that the Baku should be compensated for the particles make no sense. They don't possess them and don't control them, the Federation does. If (hypothetically) the Federation didn't own-possess-control the particles, why would the Sona wish a partnership with the Federation in the first place? The means of harvesting the particles rested in the hands of the Sona. What did the Federation bring to the table?
Oh, that's right, it their planet and their particles.
I disagree with you here, the petty little spat between the Baku and the Sona was none of the Federation's business, but the Federation out and out owned the particles.
I'm talking about interpreting the Prime Directive in its strictest sense.
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