Vents vs Spheres.

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Thanos007, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Naw, it's just that the history of the AMT model is more complicated then most people realize. So many changes in that first decade that it is possible for two people to remember different facts about the early model and both be right.
     
  2. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    I think the transtator was just a duotronic equivalent of a transistor.
     
  3. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A deflector would by definition be gravitational, wouldn’t it? They bend mass/energy much as light is bent around a star.

    We know a starship can produce finely tuned artificial gravity for life support. We can assume it can use more powerful artificial gravity for deflectors. Is it unreasonable therefore, that the propulsion involves an even further scaled-up artificial gravity? Particularly since that is the only thing we know of that might do what a starship is shown doing?

    If warp drive involves pulling space toward a ship with a gravity source, and then inflating it around the ship with a negative energy source, it COULD bypass deflectors- but only at the cost of ramming the deflectors with the warp bubble. Maybe it therefore is possible, but very much... ill advised.
     
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  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One might argue that a lifeform using gravitic propulsion would be more flexible at it than a dumb machine - meaning it could sort of wiggle its way through this "gravitons suspended in a subspace trench" deflector thing, by subtly altering the field to find the holes and resonances... Not so easy for a starship that uses brute-force gravitics to bend space.

    Then again, one might argue the opposite as well, lifeforms being less flexible than machines, and less likely to do things outside specs. But that wouldn't explain "Obsession".

    Basically, Trek summons three colors of magic for its technobabble needs: gravitics, subspace, and phasing. Might be there's a grand unifying theory on all those, and warp engines manipulate subspace by doing tricks with gravity. Might be gravity has nothing to do with warp, but is central to shields, tractor beams and the like, and also couples to transporters, phasers, cloaks and other phase tech somehow.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Not necessarily. TOS' deflector operation was left fairly vague but if we look at the definitions of "deflect" and "bend" they are different from each other. We can say that a TOS deflector interposes something (magic energy) to divert or parry incoming matter/energy. It does not shape or force matter/energy into a curve or angle.

    For a more subtle example, the Romulan cloaking device bends light around it but it doesn't deflect light.

    But is it the only thing we know of that might do what a starship is shown doing in TOS? In addition to gravity-based FTL propulsion we also have ion propulsion, total conversion drive propulsion, unknown first federation propulsion, impulse propulsion and space warp propulsion. It would seem that in TOS there were many ways to go FTL.

    It would be incredibly effective on a photon torpedo or some small suicide craft. Bypass deflectors and one hit and game over. Yet we don't see this happening so gravity-based FTL propulsion might not be a common Federation/Klingon technology in TOS. YMMV.
     
  6. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It is that example which strongly indicates the deflector is gravitational. “The Enterprise Incident”:

    “KIRK: We'll just have to hope he can buy us enough time to get this cloaking device installed.
    SCOTT: It'll have to hook into our deflector shield control.”

    The cloaking device is so much the same technology as deflectors that it must be tied into that system.

    You are talking about power. There may be many ways to POWER going FTL. But physics tells us the thing that power is doing is likely gravitational.

    A photon torpedo is so small, it may not have its own FTL capability but rather may use the ship’s warp bubble. And a small warp driven craft may not have a drive of sufficient power in its small drive system to overcome a big ships deflectors.
     
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  7. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    Subspace may be the gravity dimension. The transtator is the technobabble device that gives access to the subspace dimension. :shifty: From increasing technical difficultly:
    1. You create a large distortion field in the subspace interface (no holes) and skim along its surface (warp drive).
    2. You transmit radio waves (photons) into it and receive other sent radio waves through subatomic size holes (subspace radio where the speed of light in the subspace medium is 10,000's times faster).
    3. You peek into it (sensors; you "see" gravity/density variations 10-100's light years away).
    4. You extract gravity from subspace and redirect it (impulse propulsion, artificial gravity, Inertial Dampening System, main deflector beam, deflector screens, interstellar gas collection, tractor beam).
    5. You shunt energy through a network of subatomic holes into subspace (shields).
    6. You transmit energy and subatomic particles through a subatomic subspace channel (phasers, photon torpedoes).
    7. You transmit matter suspended in an energy field through subspace channels (transporters).
     
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  8. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    8. Coming soon. You transmit your ship suspended in a energy field through subspace channels (transwarp).
     
  9. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    That's a good correlation although one must wonder why a person making physical contact with a gravitational field powerful enough to bend light around it is not hurt (see "The Voyage Home").

    Real world physics or TOS physics? TOS physics tells us there are more than one way to go FTL and it's not just about power...

    We have at least 5.
    1. "Space warp", discovered by some guy from Alpha Centuri :)
    2. "Impulse", came before space warp and propelled the Valiant thru the galactic barrier twice.
    3. "First Federation drive", Scotty couldn't identify how it was powered or how it moved ("solid cube"). Logically, if it can't be identified against known propulsion then it must be different from anything known at that time which includes "space warp", "impulse", "ion" and "gravity" propulsion.
    4. "Gravity propulsion", from "Obsession"
    SPOCK: I should have surmised this. For the creature to be able to use gravity as a propulsive force, it would have to have this capacity.​
    5. "Ion propulsion", from "Spock's Brain"
    SPOCK: Configuration unidentified. Ion propulsion, high velocity, though of a unique technology.​

    Power wouldn't be an issue. We've seen a small Orion ship equal the power of the Enterprise in "Journey to Babel" so it's not out of the question for a suicide ship to ram the Enterprise if it had gravity propulsion. (The Orion ship was already on a one-way mission.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
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  10. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    OF Alpha Centauri.

    Bead example. We don't know this came before space warp. But we do know that the old impulse drives didn't propel the Valiant OUT through the barrier. The magnetic storm carried them half a light year out of the barrier before they were thrown clear. They then used their own propulsion to go back through the barrier. Impulse engines are specified only in trying to fight against the magnetic storm and failing. There is no mention of the propulsive means used to return through the barrier.

    A better example here would be the Romulans whose drive is specified as operating on impulse power. Although the problem we have here is it is not specified that they could go FTL. So either case requires some guess work. Though overall, I think the Romulans make a better case of impulse power driving an FTL system.



    No problem with this.
     
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  11. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    That's right. Lawrence of Arabia, Scott of the Antarctic, Cochrane of Alpha Centauri. He wasn't from there.
     
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  12. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    Also what does it even mean to be FROM somewhere? You can be from somewhere that you are not a native of. It just depends on where you consider your home base to be.
     
  13. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    I stand corrected, the dialogue is "OF Alpha Centuri". However, Shatner's pronunciation is /senturee/ not /sentoree/ so I'll stick to "Alpha Centuri". ;)

    As to whether Cochrane was born in the Alpha Centuri system or merely became well known to live there can go either way since by definition "of" can be used to show possession, belonging, or origin just like "from" can be used to show origin.
     
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  14. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Technically the impulse engines were being used to fight against the magnetic space storm that swept them out past the barrier. If there was another FTL propulsion option why isn't it mentioned in fighting the magnetic storm or when getting back thru the barrier? Why does Kirk (and Spock who doesn't correct Kirk) think the Valiant only had impulse engines 200 years ago?

    SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
    KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
    SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here. I'm not getting it all. The tapes are pretty badly burned. Sounds like the ship had encountered some unknown force. Now, orders, counter orders, repeated urgent requests for information from the ship's computer records for anything concerning ESP in human beings.
    Edit: But if there was another unknown FTL system then that's one more to list of various FTL systems in TOS.
     
  15. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    Maybe not. From WNM: Captain's log, Star date 1312.4. The impossible has happened. From directly ahead, we're picking up a recorded distress signal, the call letters of a vessel which has been missing for over two centuries. Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do? What happened to it out there? Is this some warning they've left behind?

    Widely accepted: Warp drive was invented by Cochrane just over two centuries ago (~205 to 210 years ago), too, so, we can assume the Valiant had a first generation FTL warp drive. Series of events:
    • Valiant travels 500-1000 lys from Earth to the Galaxy edge using warp drive. This may have taken a long time if using early warp drive, but not too many years or we would be earlier than the invention of warp drive. (Only about 10 11-29 years previous to WNM did the warp drive get the latest improvement. "The time-barrier has been broken...")
    • Valiant gets there and ponders at the glowing barrier, "Wow, look at that."
    • Magnetic storm sweeps up Valiant (Sensors? Shields? What are those?) Warp can't engage inside the magnetic storm. (Hence Kirk's comment about impulse engines because he knows warp drive is non-functional in such storms.)
    • Weak impulse drive can't keep station and they get swept out through the barrier and regain control 1/2 ly out. (This must have been quite a ride to go that far without FTL; that storm was screaming fast for a long time.) At this point, I don't think glowing eyes occurred since a lot of time would need to pass to go 0.5 light year at any natural space event speed. The Valiant was most probably protected from the barrier's effects by the same magnetic storm. (Possible clue on how to defeat the barrier for future passages?)
    • Valiant regains warp drive (degauss engines) and heads back into the galaxy through the barrier. Barrier burns out warp drive (same as Enterprise) and zaps crew.
    • Glowing eyes, etc. occur but in the Valiant's case, there was no Delta Vega cracking station to repair their ship, so, the crew knew is was hopeless to ever return to Earth with no warp drive. Glowing-eye guy plays with his new crew-toys, and eventually, captain destroys ship (they were as good as dead, anyway).
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
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  16. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    500 light years is still a long way to go for a mark 1 warp drive. The fact that there's no record of their trip also supports the notion that this was an unplanned trip.

    I think that the "magnetic storm" was only the Valiant crew's best guess on what was a freak subspace wave that threw the poor ship far beyond the confines of their original mission: the old impulse engines never had a chance!
     
  17. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Now with the Vulcan shuttle we see in ST:TMP, it uses a cross between warp and impulse vents on it's tail (The Krill fighters look similar BTW)

    I'm thinking the vents were a back-up, temporary impulse--that allowed one of the ships in THE ULTIMATE COMPUTER to manuver.
     
  18. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    That is my interpretation of the events.


    Do we know that the Valiant's FTL drive was a Mark 1? Do we even know how fast a mark 1 drive would go?

    The biggest problem has been how soon after the discovery of the space warp drive the Valiant was launched. We know that the Valiant was LOST over 200 years prior to WNMHGB. So that means 2066 (201 years ago) or earlier. But what does it mean to be lost? Does it mean that date that earth last had contact with the Valiant, or does it mean that date that earth realized the Valiant wasn't coming back? I ask this becasue in the days before subspace radio the fastest method of transmitting messages would be to have them delivered by ship. So unless the Valiant found ways of routing messages back to earth they would have been "lost" the moment they left the system. This is important becasue it affects the date that they started their mission and thus what type of Space Warp drive they had. As an early earth ship their mission probably would have been to stopped off at Alpha Centauri (Centuri), then maybe Vulcan, and after that other local star systems. The further along in their mission they got the earlier they would have had to have launched and thus their drive would have been slower.

    Zefram Cochrane's discovery of the Space warp would have taken place between about 2045 (age 15) and 2115(age 85 two years before supposed death). I accept First Contact, but I also think that there was a lot of R&D that went into this project before the Phoenix was launched. I'm going to date the discovery of the space warp to about 2050 and say they were launching unmanned test vehicles until the end WW3. The Phoenix the first manned mission was on April 5, 2063. the only thing that makes this super special is that it was a manned mission AND the Vulcanians just happened to be pulling an Oumuamua (that's an idiom I made up for "flyby") through our system. With all this previous R&D the space warp drive system on the Phoenix didn't necessarily have to be limited to c (aka Warp 1).

    What all that means is that means we have AT MOST two and half years between the Phoenix launching and the Valiant being lost, but the space warp drive may have been faster than just warp 1. Personally, I came up with 12.85c for the max speed of the Valiant. That's about four months to Alpha Centauri and then another year to Vulcan. So let's subtract off a year and a half from our 2.5 year figure and say that the Valiant was launched about one year after the Phoenix. Let's assume they built the drive system and installed it on a preexisting ship. Their first stop is at Alpha Centauri to drop off supplies, then they go to Vulcan and drop off the reports of the Vulcanian ship some of the Vulcanian crew and maybe and earth representative. Then they leave and are never heard from again.

    This now give us a 1 to 1.5ish year window in which the Valiant needs to make it to the galaxy edge; get swept out of the barrier; fly back in killing seven, no wait six, of our crew; and then jettison the marker. flying at max speed(based on my number) the Valiant would take about 40 years to read the galaxy edge. Sooooo....we need some other faster method of getting them there.

    All we get from the recorder marker is that the Valiant was already caught in the magnetic space storm and was being swept towards the barrier. So we have absolutely zero information as to how the Valiant got from its last known position to being caught in the storm. Some have suggested that the magnetic storm really wasn't a magnetic storm but was some sort of FTL phenomenon. Maybe Q was trying to reproduce so he blinked the Valiant to the edge. I'm not a fan of either of those theories. Though we do have precedent for other earth ships being sent incredible distances. Somehow the Charybdis in the late 2030s was flung a vast distance from earth. In 2032 the Ares IV got swallowed by a graviton ellipse and was encountered by Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. Perhaps the valiant encountered this or a wormhole.

    Then the unlucky crew of the S.S. Valiant after being sent to the edge of the galaxy got swept up in the magnetic storm. Those poor people. I'd estimate that the magnetic storm couldn't have been going much slower than 0.5c becasue that would mean that the Valiant was stuck in the storm for one year while being swept out of the galaxy. After they are thrown clear they are able to get their space warp drive going and start heading home. But unfortunately the trip back through the barrier isn't as gentle. With their space warp system presumably burned out they are now hopelessly lost 500ly from home. And you all know the rest of the story.

    Of course that all my own theorizing so you can feel free to dismiss it if you want.
     
  19. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    This strongly suggests that the "magnetic storm" had to be FTL to get 0.5 lys out. If FTL, then it's just a plausible that the storm swept the Valiant up long before the galactic edge. They may have started fairly close to the known systems, got swept up FTL and deposited 0.5 lys outside the edge of the galaxy. "Boys, we have a 70 year trip home; let's get going." <Sound familiar?>
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    A different take on this:

    In the TOS timeline space travel technology advanced faster than the TNG timeline. So in 1960's TOS had orbital nuclear weapons, first manned moon mission. By the 1990's they were already exploring and colonizing nearby star systems with atomic powered DY-series sleeper ships. Colonies are already in place in Alpha Centuri and the system that has the planet Canopius (at the very minimum). Aliens like the Vulcans, etc are already encountered. By 2018, faster propulsion (impulse power, IMHO) becomes available eliminating the need for sleeper ships.

    One of these newer and faster ships, the SS Valiant, travels to the galactic edge and is swept up in a magnetic storm and carried half a light year past the barrier. Since we know that the ESP abilities manifest in days then in order to get back past the barrier from a distance of 0.5 light year in a short enough period of time before the ESPer was unstoppable by ship self-destruct the Valiant would have had to travel at FTL speeds (like 100c to cross .5LY in 3 days). We also know from "Mirror, Mirror" that "magnetic storms" are the same as "ion storms" and in "Court Martial" you can fly through an ion storm with warp drive so if the Valiant had warp drive then that would have been the go-to to get out of the storm instead of the weaker impulse engines of the day. That leaves just impulse engines or an unknown other type of FTL drive that isn't warp drive for FTL travel for the Valiant.

    Sometime after SS Valiant goes exploring, Zefram Cochrane discovers the "space warp" in the Alpha Centuri system. The technology spreads across the "known galaxy".

    In the TNG timeline space technology development is significantly slowed. There are no colonies offworld and other races already have space warp technology. Zefram Cochrane builds Earth's first warp drive in 2064? and the Vulcans make first contact. Most of the TOS episodes happen differently and at a much later date. There is no SS Valiant lost at the galactic barrier.

    YMMV :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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