Oh yeah. I just saw the word Vanguard and forgot about the new ebook.
Venting about ebooks
- Thread starter Flogiston
- Start date
Oh yeah. I just saw the word Vanguard and forgot about the new ebook.
Actually, the DMCA is chock full of holes and there are exception(s) to allow you to strip the DRM. Also, fair use was out there before the DMCA and may actually trump DMCA. Until we get a court ruling, it's a grey area. It's not known if it's illegal or not. So don't go making a blanket statement to the illegality of stripping DRM when it's not 100% illegal (in the USA) and might not be illegal at all.
Also, we have a new wrinkle in place. The tools used to strip the DRM were linked to by John Scalzi because when his book Redshirt came out it was supposed to be sold without DRM but some stores sold it with DRM. Also, Tor went along with this as well. So given this, it may make the tools somewhat legal as we have rights holders advocating/allowing removing DRM.
As to owning an eBook or not, there can be a case made for ownership because when you buy an eBook, the sites make it look like a true sale and not a license agreement. The words Buy Now go a long way to possibly granting ownership to the purchaser. And again, another grey area until a court decides a case.
It's not a gray area at all. By the letter of the law, it's illegal, and you strip the DRM at your own risk. Just because a court hasn't ruled on it doesn't mean that it's not illegal.
And "Fair Use" doesn't apply unless you're stripping DRM so you can quote from it. Also, the Fair Use Doctrine in an affirmative defense; it's an admission that you're violating copyright, but you have a reason for doing so. And that's something that courts have to adjudicate.
Fair Use applies to stripping DRM for your own personal use. Not just quoting. It applies so you can format shift and other things one does for personal use. DMCA does have exception(s) for stripping DRM from eBooks. So if you meet the exception(s), then it's legal. the reason this needs to go in front of a court for a ruling is because it's not known if DMCA trumps Fair Use or not. If not, then DMCA is rubbish (well it is anyway). Nobody has legally said that Fair Use is not no longer valid. So until this issue is sorted out, it's going to remain a grey area.
Also, the fact that an author and his publishing company allowed the tools to be used to strip the DRM from an eBook they hold the rights to makes this a new game.
Umm, no.
Here's the relevant legal code:
Can you tell me how stripping DRM to format shift applies to any of that?
There's nothing "grey" here. It's either legal or illegal. Because courts have not ruled on whether DRM stripping is legal, it's presumptively illegal because of the DMCA. If you want to strip the DRM, there's nothing to stop you, but you do so at your own risk until such time as the courts say that it's not illegal to do so.
Unless the ebook isn't available in a format that allows screen-reading. Or you live somewhere more enlightened than the US.
Plus 'at your own risk' an important phrase there, as there is no risk to individuals. No-one gets prosecuted for it. And when that happens, laws often get changed to allow that sort of thing, because no-one wants un-enforced laws on the statute books. It used to be illegal to rip your CDs to iTunes, but everyone did it, so eventually that got added to 'fair use'.
Would Fair Use/DCMA work the other way too?
I just bought the Destiny omnibus from Amazon (New, not a second-hand version).
The only reason I bought it was cos the person that normally brings books for me lost the previous one I bought. Not a big deal in itself.
Of course, now I bought it the old one has been found. So, now I have paid for 2 "real" books.
Would it be morally and/or legally wrong to download an e-book version without paying for it?
I just bought the Destiny omnibus from Amazon (New, not a second-hand version).
The only reason I bought it was cos the person that normally brings books for me lost the previous one I bought. Not a big deal in itself.
Of course, now I bought it the old one has been found. So, now I have paid for 2 "real" books.
Would it be morally and/or legally wrong to download an e-book version without paying for it?
Here in germany ebooks and printed editions are not allowed to be priced differently. We have a law called the "Buchpreisbindung" (binding book prices), that basically says that a any book published here must be sold at the same price everywhere. The law doesn´t say anything about ebooks for now, but the German Publishers and Booksellers Association, who oversees book publishing handles it as if the law included ebooks.
I´ve been buying the english ebooks of pretty much anything instead of the german printed editions, because they are cheaper and book translations are WAY behind anyway.
I´ve been buying the english ebooks of pretty much anything instead of the german printed editions, because they are cheaper and book translations are WAY behind anyway.
Be sure to remember that fair use is valid for US (and Canada?) only. Almost everywhere else, especially Europe it´s: "If it has DRM, makeing copies for ANY reason is illegal"
Just to clarify, since that sentence could be misinterpreted:
Of course the paper editions can vary in price from the eBook edition(s), and do so for most books.
But the same edition must be sold at the same price anywhere, so book-sellers can't give discounts on the paperback edition for example (unless they are marked as "Mängelexemplar" (flawed copy)).
I´m not sure...the text of the law actually says: "books in the sense of this law are...products that substitue or reproduce books, musical scores or cartographic products"
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/buchprg/BJNR344810002.html
See §2 3.
Ahem, have you looked at the prices of paper books and ebooks?
Just for the easiest example (and most fitting for this board) look at the German translation of the Star Trek Voyager Homecoming: paperback 12,80€, ebook 4,99€.
(by the way, if anyone wonders the price difference is only that huge for the first book in a new series usually)
All book sellers have to adhere to the set price for a specific edition (paperback, trade paperback, hardcover, eBook), but between those different editions different prices are allowed (and only logical). Nobody expects to have a hardcover cost the same as the paperback reprint, for example
When I was reading Star Wars stuff, I bought new and used books, often getting them delivered to my house. There were all sorts of problems like waiting around for delivery, receiving damaged books, missing pages, etc. So with the Star Trek books I decided to go straight E book.
What bothers me most about Simon and Schuster is the inconsistencies in pricing. A perfect example is the book series I'm reading right now, "Worlds of Deep Space 9." The first book is about 7 dollars, the second is 8, but the 3rd book is 13 dollars!? Why? The only answer I can come up with is its the last book in the series and your going to buy it anyway right?
The other example is the Myriad Universe series. Everyone said it was a great read but the ebook is $22.58! For an ebook! The others are more reasonably priced around 10, but there's no way I can justify spending that much for one book. I emailed Amazon and said this has to be a mistake right? Nope. Set by the publisher.
So now I'm left with a few choices. I can either bite the bullet and spend the money, break my rule and buy the paper books used, or skip the books and hope the pricing corrects itself in the future.
Sadly, for me, it's the third option.
What bothers me most about Simon and Schuster is the inconsistencies in pricing. A perfect example is the book series I'm reading right now, "Worlds of Deep Space 9." The first book is about 7 dollars, the second is 8, but the 3rd book is 13 dollars!? Why? The only answer I can come up with is its the last book in the series and your going to buy it anyway right?
The other example is the Myriad Universe series. Everyone said it was a great read but the ebook is $22.58! For an ebook! The others are more reasonably priced around 10, but there's no way I can justify spending that much for one book. I emailed Amazon and said this has to be a mistake right? Nope. Set by the publisher.
So now I'm left with a few choices. I can either bite the bullet and spend the money, break my rule and buy the paper books used, or skip the books and hope the pricing corrects itself in the future.
Sadly, for me, it's the third option.
Because the first two stayed in print as mass-market books, or never got a print-on-demand reprint. The third did get a POD reprint. And since S&S ties their ebook prices to the price of the latest print edition, when that went up so did the ebook price.
An eBook is a REAL book. It would be legally wrong to download the eBook. Morally is up to you.
There is such a thing as Fair Use. Stripping the DRM from an eBook or your own personal use falls under Fair Use. What's never legally been decided is if Fair Use is still valid or if DMCA trumps that. That is why it's a grey area. It's not strictly illegal until it's been said to be illegal in a court of law. Can you show me any legal precedence that says that DMCA trumps Fair Use? I think not because there isn't any.
While definitely agree with that I still think there a difference (at least morally) if you bought a real book or not.
Logically, you would expect e-books to be much cheaper since the cost of printing, distribution, stocking etc simply don't exist.
However, since the author needs to make money too (I have no problems with that) the e-book is priced about the same as a real one.
BUT, if I already paid for the book (in my case twice), I feel that getting a version that is in certain cases easier to read is not the same as never paying at all.
I see it as the same as CD to tapes back in the early 90s. You wouldn't think twice about recording your new CD to tape to play in the car.
The videogame world has a really interesting dynamic. DRM is so pervasive there, and hackers take it as a challenge, that some people buy the fully DRM'd version then download a pirate copy so they don't have to worry about signing in online, or whatever it is EA force them to do. Which is basically the same as what you're wondering.
The problem is legally. Though the likelihood of anyone coming after you for one ebook is minute.
The videogame world has a really interesting dynamic. DRM is so pervasive there, and hackers take it as a challenge, that some people buy the fully DRM'd version then download a pirate copy so they don't have to worry about signing in online, or whatever it is EA force them to do. Which is basically the same as what you're wondering.
The problem is legally. Though the likelihood of anyone coming after you for one ebook is minute.
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