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Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Couple of things I noticed on seeing STID again last night. Two main reactions for local expert analysis:

- The Trick Shots -
It was hard to see at first, but I spotted it the third time around and I had to hunt down some screencanps just to be sure.

trickshot3.png

trickshot4.png

It seems the phaser blasts from the USS Vengeance do not actually travel in a straight line. Quite the contrary, they seem to curve through space in these wide twisty arcs before finding their way to the Enterprise' hull.

I'm tempted to think this might be a novel application of deflector shields, e.g. the shields literally deflect enemy weapons fire away from the ship, causing it to veer partially off target, and the shields being at low power explains why those blasts still managed to hit the ship. This is my preferred explanation because it has the fewest variables involved and, let's face it, would just be kind of a cool way to re-imagine deflectors.

The other possibility comes from the fact that the red blasts used by both Enterprise and the Vengeance in the last two movies were never verbally identified as phasers. Indeed, the one time they were actually referred to at all in STXI is when Kirk shouts "Arm photons, fire everything we've got!" It could be, therefore, that the red bolts we've been associating with phasers are, in fact, very small photonic weapons fired like cannon shells that may even have their own guidance systems. That theory would explain both their relatively slow speed (the putative "phaser" bolts are only twice as fast as the blue photon torpedoes) and would be consistent with the photon launchers on the Kelvin 30 years earlier.

- Battle pods -
veng4.png

Small object shaped like a giant doughnut hole is seen floating through space, firing torpedoes at the Enterprise. Battle drone does not seem to be armed with phasers, although it may or may not be equipped with two different types of torpedoes. These pods are never seen firing phasers, despite the fact that they are in locations about where phasers seem to be coming from in the warp speed attack. This, again, lends some credence to the theory that the red-colored bolts are actually some kind of small torpedo and not phasers after all.


- Trails -
Using same screencap above. We have today the first known instance of a Starfleet torpedo leaving a visible exhaust trail as it flies through space. We can't know the relationship between these weapons and the standard photon torpedo -- if there is such a thing as "standard" -- but if I had to guess, I'd say the "smoky" torpedoes are probably from Vengeance' native compliment of the modified long-range Khanpedoes.

Combined with the revelation of additional launch ports on the side of the Enterprise's hull and the enlarged size of the torpedoes themselves, I'm thinking that we might need to fundamentally reevaluate how we think about Starfleet weaponry. We've gotten comfortable with the idea that Starfleet carries exactly two types of weapons and one or two versions of each on board their ships, but in a modern navy this is far from the case; guided missile cruisers like the Kirov have not less than three different types of anti-ship missiles and two different types of SAMs. Aegis cruisers have multi-purpose missiles for engaging sea/air targets, cruise missiles, harpoon antishipping missiles and smaller more specialized point defense missiles like ESSM, in addition to slower moving water-bound torpedoes.

Abramsverse starships may have simply moved away from phasers as a primary armament, relying instead on far more powerful volleys of short-ranged torpedoes. The rationale would seem to be that while phasers have theoretically unlimited ammo, a mini-torpedo can do ten times the damage with a single shot and is less likely to miss its target. The precedent for this would be in ST09 when we saw crews loading cylinders into what appeared to be launch tubes in the torpedo room; apart from the fact that these cylinders seem much too small to be "normal" torpedo casings, they're installed in housings that are facing in opposite directions, side by side.

torpedoese.png

That, to me, suggests that the ball turrets we've been seeing on the saucer section of the Enterprise are, in fact, small photon launchers, highly directional and very fast-firing counterparts of the spatial torpedo tubes we saw on NX-01.

With six shots per turret and twelve turrets on the Enterprise, this would mean the ship is capable of launching a total of 72 small general-purpose torpedoes in a single barrage. The main torpedo launcher probably a very heavy, medium-range anti-ship weapon fed from a rotary magazine in the neck of the ship. The tubes we saw in broadside would ordinarily be used for drones, probes, mines, or assorted long-range weapons of a type we would normally call "cruise missiles."

Thoughts?

The ball turrents on the saucer are phasers and the torpedo room scene much like the shuttlebay scene is subject to extreme amounts of doubt. The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers. This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it. The warp drive system on this Enterprise thus far has not been explained in any way shape or form thus allowing the ship to jump to light speed without anyone wondering how it does that. Unlike the original which had technical schematics showing how the warp drive worked. Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function which puts the falling Enterprise scene into doubt as well. The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcar...enterprise-phase-2-refit-program-sheet-11.jpg
 
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There's a dizzying number of things in this post you are stating as fact that you cannot possibly know for sure and are basing purely on your interpretation of second-hand fan speculation:
The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers.
A strong possibility, but in Alan Dean Foster's novelization (which is based on the script) Scotty implies those were the modifications HE made in his own spare time (i.e. he is really angry with Kirk for forcing him to resign after all the work he's put into the Enterprise).

This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it.
You mean it has things like removable data storage based on magnetic tape, CRT displays, Pushbutton interfaces, solid-state electronics, incandescent bulbs, Styrofoam cups?

You're right, we'd never see any of those things on the original Enterprise.:vulcan:

The warp drive system on this Enterprise thus far has not been explained in any way shape or form thus allowing the ship to jump to light speed without anyone wondering how it does that. Unlike the original which had technical schematics showing how the warp drive worked.
No it didn't. Hell, to this day we're not even sure where the original ship's engine room is.

Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function
Your totally baseless assertion seems to be incorrect, considering this is exactly what happened in STID.

The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.
And if this was the refit Enterprise -- and not a totally different vessel almost six times its volume -- that would be a good point.

Ironically, the image you linked to is NOT the refit Enterprise, but fanart interpretation of the aborted Phase-II Enterprise on which the TMP refit was (mostly) based. So you are not actually comparing the new ship to a totally different design it has nothing whatsoever in common with; you're comparing the new ship to a speculative interpretation of a ship that was never actually built.
 
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There's a dizzying number of things in this post you are stating as fact that you cannot possibly know for sure and are basing purely on your interpretation of second-hand fan speculation:
The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers.
A strong possibility, but in Alan Dean Foster's novelization (which is based on the script) Scotty implies those were the modifications HE made in his own spare time (i.e. he is really angry with Kirk for forcing him to resign after all the work he's put into the Enterprise).

This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it.
You mean it has things like removable data storage based on magnetic tape, CRT displays, Pushbutton interfaces, solid-state electronics, incandescent bulbs, Styrofoam cups?

You're right, we'd never see any of those things on the original Enterprise.:vulcan:

No it didn't. Hell, to this day we're not even sure where the original ship's engine room is.

Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function
Your totally baseless assertion seems to be incorrect, considering this is exactly what happened in STID.

The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.
And if this was the refit Enterprise -- and not a totally different vessel almost six times its volume -- that would be a good point.

Ironically, the image you linked to is NOT the refit Enterprise, but fanart interpretation of the aborted Phase-II Enterprise on which the TMP refit was (mostly) based. So you are not actually comparing the new ship to a totally different design it has nothing whatsoever in common with; you're comparing the new ship to a speculative interpretation of a ship that was never actually built.


I know more about the Enterprise than you do or ever will. It may be a fan blueprint but it's still very accurate. I can always find an official one, you'll probably have something to say about that too. The new ship is design with no technical blueprints to back up where the various locations are shown. Did it really take you several days to come up with this response? :guffaw:
 
The ball turrents on the saucer are phasers and the torpedo room scene much like the shuttlebay scene is subject to extreme amounts of doubt.
Why? Because you don't like it?
The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers. This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it. The warp drive system on this Enterprise thus far has not been explained in any way shape or form thus allowing the ship to jump to light speed without anyone wondering how it does that. Unlike the original which had technical schematics showing how the warp drive worked.
No it didn't, it wasn't until long after the series had finished when technical manuals started to appear. Warp drive was never explained in any kind of detail in he show.

And I'd like to see the 20th century version of the glass in the brig, I must have missed that.
Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function which puts the falling Enterprise scene into doubt as well.
You might want to re-watch "The Naked Time", where the same thing happens.
The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcar...enterprise-phase-2-refit-program-sheet-11.jpg
This fan-made diagram carries more weight than the canon movie? LOL, okay...
I know more about the Enterprise than you do or ever will. It may be a fan blueprint but it's still very accurate. I can always find an official one, you'll probably have something to say about that too. The new ship is design with no technical blueprints to back up where the various locations are shown. Did it really take you several days to come up with this response?
Technical blueprints are non-canon. And the ones you liked to aren't even for any version of the Enterprise that appeared on-screen.

You don't need blueprints to tell you where everything on the new Enterprise is, all you need are your eyes. But hey, I'm talking to the guy who thinks the shuttlebay "doesn't count" and gigantic engineering sections would somehow fit into a hull that's only 30 meters wide... :rommie:
 
And all "official" ones of the TOS Enterprise contradict each other or don't fully match up to the ship shown on screen anyway.

They're all included in written material outside of the shown, never onscreen, so no fully official plans of ship exist outside of the cutaway in "In a Mirror Darkly", which has no annotations.
 
...Basically, the classic JJ Abrams camera shake, now applied to the visual effects as well.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually looking at my picture compared to the others, the curved vapour trails seem to come after the beam has hit, so it may be super heated warp exhaust, created by the phaser passing through it.
 
I mean I liked it. The phasers seemed more like lightning bolts that had a huge amount of power. They look like a weapon.
 
Actually looking at my picture compared to the others, the curved vapour trails seem to come after the beam has hit, so it may be super heated warp exhaust, created by the phaser passing through it.
It's easier to see in slow motion, though; the beam itself is following a curved path prior to impact. More importantly, the effect is also noticeable AFTER the ship has dropped out of warp.
 
Actually looking at my picture compared to the others, the curved vapour trails seem to come after the beam has hit, so it may be super heated warp exhaust, created by the phaser passing through it.
It's easier to see in slow motion, though; the beam itself is following a curved path prior to impact. More importantly, the effect is also noticeable AFTER the ship has dropped out of warp.

Hmm, I wonder if some of that new 'advanced' weaponry is something like a laser painter, dotting the hull with something we can't see polarising a spot in it, the phaser arcing between the two. A lightning bolt of a sort as someone else suggested.
 
^ That would be a FANTASTIC explanation for how phasers really work, considering how rarely phasers actually miss their target.
 
^ Wouldn't that basically imply that phasers are subluminal, speed-wise? Otherwise the phaser "bolt" would pretty much arrive at the same time as the pointer, so I don't think it would be all that beneficial.

Then again, I may be wrong -- dang relativity!! :) :p

Was it mentioned up-thread that this (supposed) arcing could be artifacts from the 3D conversion process? Even in 2D (best way to see STID, IMO), you could tell where there was a "3D type" scene (like the "warp trails", etc.), as it would skew things visually.

Cheers,
-CM-
 
A "lightning bolt" spanning the distance between two "special" points in space, the emitter and the somehow tagged destination, would also explain why phasers always take the same amount of time to reach their target, regardless of the distance to the target. If the target is two meters away, it takes three frames of film to get there; if the target is twenty thousand kilometers away, it takes three frames of film. Perhaps phaser beams are basically just destructive transporter beams that go from A to B instantaneously but waste a standard amount of time "emerging" thereafter, only they are so powerful that they leak light across the "channel" created between A and B, whereas transporter beams are invisible in their "channels".

Timo Saloniemi
 
^ Wouldn't that basically imply that phasers are subluminal, speed-wise?
Absolutely. Which they obviously are, as we've seen in Trek for the past 30 years now. Phaser beams seem to

Was it mentioned up-thread that this (supposed) arcing could be artifacts from the 3D conversion process? Even in 2D (best way to see STID, IMO), you could tell where there was a "3D type" scene (like the "warp trails", etc.), as it would skew things visually.
They would follow the same path either way; 2D images become 3D only by slightly offsetting the image a couple of degrees where the filter on the opposite eye will see it in a slightly different position.
 
Phasers are neither sub- or superluminal, but rather have variable speed. Hand phaser beams move very slowly; starship phaser beams move very fast, and often at high warp (because they can explicitly reach targets at warp). It's just a matter of scale: a beam that appears to move at a certain speed is fast or slow depending on the distance it covers.

Nothing wrong with that, really. It's actually quite understandable that starship-fired beams would be faster, as there is more power behind them than behind sidearm beams...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Phasers are neither sub- or superluminal, but rather have variable speed. Hand phaser beams move very slowly; starship phaser beams move very fast, and often at high warp (because they can explicitly reach targets at warp).
But then the relative velocities between those two ships are quite a bit lower and the phaser beam itself isn't moving all that fast with respect to the ship that fires it or the ship it hits.
 
Not in cases where only one of the ships is at warp - say, "Journey to Babel" or "Elaan of Troyius". Plus we have beams going from Mars to Earth in no time flat in ENT, with otherwise phaserlike capabilities...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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