Vanguard controversy

[David Mack]

^ To expand upon Trent's explanation about the relationship that dare not speak its name in this thread, its reason for being part of the Vanguard saga was to continue exploring the theme of personal commitments versus professional commitments, and the manner in which both the women in this relationship were treading on dangerous ground by becoming romantically entangled. It is a situation that leads to increasingly more serious ethical/personal conflicts as the series continues in Summon the Thunder and Reap the Whirlwind.

 

[Maestro]

I'm still planning to read the book and decide for myself the propriety of the so-called "controversial" passage. I really do think if its sole purpose is to tittilate that it shouldn't be in Trek Lit, but I want to read it and decide.

As for TLS, I'd like to know where he draws the line with his religious beliefs. The Ten Commandments say that "Thou shalt not kill." It it OK to read books with killing in them? How is that any different?

 

[Maestro]

David Mack said:
^ To expand upon Trent's explanation about the relationship that dare not speak its name in this thread, its reason for being part of the Vanguard saga was to continue exploring the theme of personal commitments versus professional commitments, and the manner in which both the women in this relationship were treading on dangerous ground by becoming romantically entangled. It is a situation that leads to increasingly more serious ethical/personal conflicts as the series continues in Summon the Thunder and Reap the Whirlwind.

Gosh, Dave, I know others may question my credibility to say this, but this just sounds like good writing to me. I'm looking forward to reading the first book.

 

[William Leisner]

Maestro said:
First off, I'm a consumer, so I get some say.

No, you don't. If you got a say, you would have been on a conference call with Dave and Marco a year and a half ago, and would have been given the opportunity to ask, "Now, this lesbian scene: tell me what you were thinking as you wrote it, so I know whether to allow it or not."

The only say you have as a consumer is "I will/won't spend my money to consume this product." See, that's how you can tell you are a consumer, rather than a writer or editor.

Oh, and the reason I had to chew your ass? Because you apparently didn't understand this.

 

[Maestro]

Stop being a jerk. I most certainly get a say and it comes from my wallet. If I think the lesbian scene is inappropriate, I have every right to return the books and raise a fuss with Pocket Books.

I'm planning to read the book and offer my opinion, which is something I have the right to render as a member of this BBS. It's also something I have the right to render as a comsumer. If you don't like my opinion, that's your perogative. Just like it's my perogative to have an opinion about the scene.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Maestro said:
Stop being a jerk. I most certainly get a say and it comes from my wallet. If I think the lesbian scene is inappropriate, I have every right to return the books and raise a fuss with Pocket Books.

I'm planning to read the book and offer my opinion, which is something I have the right to render as a member of this BBS. It's also something I have the right to render as a comsumer. If you don't like my opinion, that's your perogative. Just like it's my perogative to have an opinion about the scene.

Kudos Maestro,

You pose legit questions to me and to those that disagree with me. I appreciate that.

To answer your question, I believe I addressed it upthread. I am not a violent person, and I view the violence in books as good vs. evil. I don't support or endorse evil and I know good will eventually triumph.

The reason I have an issue with homosexual acts and to an equal extent adultery, is because they are being asked to be taken by us (society) as acceptable. Please know that I am not saying I am a better person than anyone else. I simply disagree that these things are okay. For that reason I returned the books.

I also believe David to be a gifted writer and I support his right to portray his characters as he sees fit. No book is for all readers and this series just wasn't for me.

 

[captcalhoun]

i'm sorry, but i don't see how we're being asked to take these relationships as acceptable. all we're being asked is to accept the fact that the relationships are happening and influencing the characters' behaviour. MAYBE if you'd read the book properly you'd understand this. BUT you didn't you flew into your righteous wrath and got in a tizzy and took the book back.

 

[Sci]

Considering that the relationship between the Vulcan and Klingon spies is depicted as being a fundamentally sick and emotionally abusive relationship, I have to say that I'm surprised that someone who's opposed to homosexuality would have a problem. It's certainly not a positive portrayal of homosexuality.

 

[Bjoern]

I am kind of bewildered by this whole discussion. The Vanguard series is for me a thoroughly enjoyable read not in spite but because of the more 'mature' approach that has been taken.

Certainly, this might not be the case for all potential readers. Expectations differ and so do reactions. TrekLit has so much to offer these days that any Trek fan will find something that he finds enjoyable to read.

Now, I can't deny being surprised at the extent of how preconceived morality seems to influence a reader's reaction to a work of fiction. There is always the accusation of a 'hidden agenda', which I think is nonsense. Interestingly, this is always insinuated when homosexuality is being depicted. Much in contrast, the depiction of murder as well as killing and violence in general seems to be widely accepted and not objectionable. Somehow, this seems hypocritical to me.

 

[Kevin Dilmore]

Why are we all worked up about this? It's just an internet bulletin-board thread.

Not like it's a book or anything.

Bubba D.

 

[David Mack]

^ First, kudos to Kevin for putting it all in perspective.

Second, to address TLS's insinuation that adultery is being presented as something "approved of" in the Vanguard series, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Pennington feels intensely guilty about his affair when he interacts with his lover's unknowning husband. After his lover dies, he goes to great lengths to destroy all evidence of the affair to prevent her grieving husband from having to face his wife's hurtful indiscretion.

And it was not accidental that Pennington's life then begins an amazing streak of bad luck: In the space of just a few weeks, his affair ends in tragedy, his marriage ends in bitter fury, and his career spirals into public disgrace. From a Karmic point of view, it should be apparent that the adulterer has become a living $h!t magnet, at least in part because he deserved it.

As for the two star-crossed lovers in the other "controversial" relationship? You want to see people suffer for their choices? Keep reading their story. To paraphrase Shakespeare...

Spoiler: key revelations in Harbinger and Reap the Whirlwind

"Never was there a tale of more woe, than this of T'Prynn and her Sandesjo."

 

[Maestro]

Assuming my local Borders still has a copy of the first book in stock, I'm picking it up tonight. It's going into the reading queue right after the Repairman Jack book I started last night. I'm looking forward to my own evaluation of this controversy.

 

[JD]

I just want to say that the T'Prynn/Anna relationship is one of my favorite subplots in the series. No, it's not because I'm some perv who gets off on stuff like that, I've simply found it to be a very interesting to watch how it affects them, and also because it has given us two of my favorite suprises the whole series, the first being that they were even in relationship and the second being

Spoiler: Summon the Thunder

the fact that Luqal was actually a double agent working for T'Prynn.

In fact the seond one caused one of my only verbal reactions to a book that I have ever had. FYI it was one of suprise.:thumbsup:

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Yes indeed. It was a cool shock.

Although everyone on the train, when I was reading "The Entropy Effect" in 1981, got to hear my "Oh no!" when a time-hopping Spock failed to prevent Kirk's death a second time.

 

[JD]

Luckily when I got to that part of StT I was in my room so I didn't have to worry about getting weird looks from anyone.

 

[Maestro]

So, I'm past page 200 in the first Vanguard book, and I fail to see the issue. Pennington completely screwed up and he's paying the price. Big time. No glorification of adultery here. Just pure pain and suffering as punishment.

This is a good book. It has that classic TOS feel to it, with a comfortable "modernization" based on where humanity has come in the past 40 years. Characters are well written and developed, and alien enough to be alien, but not so alien as to alienate me as the reader.

Characterizations of the TOS characters are spot on, and I really like the Vanguard folks too.

Unless this takes a turn for the suck in the next 200 pages, my hat is off to you, Mr. Mack, and I'm looking forward to reading the next books.

 

[David Mack]

Thank you, Maestro, most kind. I hope the latter half of the book lives up to the expectations you've developed while reading the first half.

Best,
David Mack

 

[Maestro]

*Spoilers for Harbinger within*

It is my opinion that neither the adulterous act nor the "homosexual" one depicted in Harbinger was there to glorify such acts or titilate the reader.

TLS, your own sig file quotes what St. Paul believes God will do to adulterers. I doubt that the Lord Jesus himself could have spun a more agonizing parable for the hell that adulterers will live in than Mr. Mack has spun for Pennington.

As for the homosexual relationship, we've been down the road of "does the Bible apply to non-humans?" but it's still a valid question. Also, having only read Harbinger, are we certain that it's T'Prynn that's having the relationship and not the katra within her?

I'm sorry, TLS and anyone else who was offended by the book, but I don't see what the problem is. Nowhere are the acts that ya'll consider "immoral" glorified. Harbinger was just a good TOS-era book with some major conflict thrown in.

I'm looking forward to the next books.

Oh, and Mr. Mack, not to open old wounds or anything, but I think you achieved what the folks behind Titan where trying to achieve with the big cast of characters and the alienness of the universe, but without any of the concerns I had with the Titan books. For my tastes, you got it right.

 

[David Mack]

Maestro said:
Also, having only read Harbinger, are we certain that it's T'Prynn that's having the relationship and not the katra within her?

I don't wish to spoil anything for you, but I will say that the question you've raised is addressed in the third book, Reap the Whirlwind.

Oh, and Mr. Mack, not to open old wounds or anything, but I think you achieved what the folks behind Titan where trying to achieve with the big cast of characters and the alienness of the universe, but without any of the concerns I had with the Titan books. For my tastes, you got it right.

Well, I'm gratified to hear that the Vanguard series concept and characters worked for you. Here's to hoping that you'll find my take on the Titan cast more to your liking in my Star Trek Destiny trilogy next year.

Best,
~ David Mack

 

[foravalon]

woot!