Do u think the idea of the valiant epside,having a group of cadets taking control of a federation warship and think that they can do something that more experince officers wouldnt even do,dont think any modern navy would put cadets in charge of a warship during war and let them tak on the enemy.
Valiant
- Thread starter Mr Pointy Ears
- Start date
Well firstly Starfleet isn't a modern navy, secondly the Valiant was a training ship with regular officers supervising, thirdly she launched before war was declared, and fourthly Starfleet was not aware they were behind the lines causing havoc. The captain had ordered Watters to return to the nearest Starbase, he took it on himself to wage war.
The Klingons probably loved it, though. A ship's crew sacrificing themselves in battle against a superior enemy force? The Klingons probably sang songs about the Valiant's crew as soon as they found out.
I think the idea is great. I think the writing and directing for this episode was terrible. "Captain" Watters and "Commander" Farris weren't Starfleet cadets thrust into a situation that forced them to make the choices they did or take on the responsibility for the ship's mission. It seemed very much like these were children directed to act like adults and it came off terrible. Additionally, Watters came off as a cult leader with a bunch of mindless followers.
Great episode idea. Really bad episode.
Great episode idea. Really bad episode.
Well, I thought it was a terrific episode, and the perfect showcase for why Red Squad (and any other groups like it) should be abolished. I don't think Watters came off as a cult leader; I think he came off for what he was. That is, the head of a group of cadets that have been inundated with "You're the best", "You're special", "You're the cream of the crop". Add that to their continued survival, and arrogance added to good intentions can turn into fanaticism.
What really makes the episode work (at least for me) is Jake. He's our eyes and ears in this, and he cries out against the arrogance, the foolhardy-ness of these people who are very much still children.
What really makes the episode work (at least for me) is Jake. He's our eyes and ears in this, and he cries out against the arrogance, the foolhardy-ness of these people who are very much still children.
I'd like to think Starfleet Academy underwent some serious revision after this incident, possibly up to and including the resignation of the Superintendant.
I mean really, the Federation is neurotic about augmented humans, but telling normal humans, "You're better than everyone around you," still seems like a good idea? Really??
I mean really, the Federation is neurotic about augmented humans, but telling normal humans, "You're better than everyone around you," still seems like a good idea? Really??
I wouldn't go that far. There's nothing wrong with telling students they are special, thats what honor role in school is for.
Now, reorganized perhaps. Like making sure they know not to take the ship and wage their own private little war. But abolished? Nah, special programs like that can be a good thing.
They were cadets they were young and when your young fear is just a word lest us remember what happend to the valiant it was destroyed losing almost all her crew and pretty powerful starship ?
IMO they were foolish and should have reported back to the nearest starbase they did not make any difference to the war in DS9 ?
IMO they were foolish and should have reported back to the nearest starbase they did not make any difference to the war in DS9 ?
So we should get rid of things like Honor Role, Valedictorian awards, an anything else that recognizes someones excellence? Yes, THAT group of cadets went to far, and Red Squad definitely had a dubious beginning. Admiral Whatsisface and his plans to take over earth. But that doesn't mean the idea of recognizing someone doing a good job is a bad thing.
This seems like it could become a TNZ topic easily enough, but my two cents on the topic is that you're correct. Telling a group of people that they're superior must necessarily indicate that those not part of the group are inferior. And that is actually the case when it comes to real life.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the truth. Some people are elite, some people are not. There are excellent teachers and mediocre teachers. There are great politicians and aldermen for life. There are world renowned chefs, and there are McDonald's line cooks.
The key comes from learning to handle that superiority properly. Telling the special kids they're not special defeats reason, and will only cause confusion and probably rebellion. Rather they need to be molded in such a way that their gifts are realized, recognized, and utilized -- for a reason larger than their own glory.
The kids on the Valiant had no such sense of purpose. They paid lip service to the cause, but ultimately it was about Red Squad kicking ass -- and that's no good.
I actually agree with you on principle, but clearly Starfleet Academy lost sight of how to recognize excellence without allowing it to mutate into arrogance.
And the First Officer was probably one of the bitchiest characters in Trek.
it's difficult, if the most talented ones get privileged and praised, the majority may get neglected, their performance can decrease, and some of them might refuse to perform at all. that starfleet continued to breed elites after the locarno incident seems to indicate that they want this sort of competition. i like to compare the episode with tng's tapestry or suchlike which paint recklessness as a virtue.
The Valiant is like a train wreck to me. On one hand you know you probably shouldn't look at the carnage and yet you just can't help yourself.
I despise the Valiant's crew with the power of a thousand fiery suns for many of the reasons already mentioned. While it isn't the Red Squad's fault that they have been indoctrinated to believe their crap don't stink, they obviously believe they are too good for everyone else. The "first officer" in particular turns her nose up at Jake and Nog at every available opportunity.
I liked what this episode did for Jake's character though. He not only saw Red Squad cadets for what they were, but he called them out on it. It landed him in the brig yes, but I liked that he didn't get sucked into the vortex of arrogance.
I despise the Valiant's crew with the power of a thousand fiery suns for many of the reasons already mentioned. While it isn't the Red Squad's fault that they have been indoctrinated to believe their crap don't stink, they obviously believe they are too good for everyone else. The "first officer" in particular turns her nose up at Jake and Nog at every available opportunity.
I liked what this episode did for Jake's character though. He not only saw Red Squad cadets for what they were, but he called them out on it. It landed him in the brig yes, but I liked that he didn't get sucked into the vortex of arrogance.
US Navy SEALs are an elite force. To even get into that program, one must possess a great deal of innate ability. Does acknowledging that ability, and providing the kind of advanced training that only those with such ability can handle, constitute neglect of others that don't have those abilities and couldn't handle that level of training?
You put your James Kirks in command of starships, and your Reginald Barclays into therapy. Mixing the two based on the idea that Barclay's opportunity shouldn't be proportionate to his ability, would be extremely unwise, I think.
What happened on the Valiant was a tragedy -- Cadets, in the process of being trained, were left to their own devices after their instructors were killed. That's hardly an indictment of elitism, so much as an exposure of the frailty of youth. Had the members of Red Squad actually completed their training properly, and continued to benefit from the perspectives of their elders, I'd like to think things would have been very different for them.
Anti-arrogance training might be an interesting course, but I tend to think this one is called "Life".
Last edited:
I think "Valiant" tried really hard to capture what is seen by some to be the negative aspect of the military. I didn't really buy it, though I was glad they threw in a line to say the failure was pretty much Water's fault. As cadets they would be trained to work that way, and during training there's usually a lot of team-building to instill pride in what can be accomplished as a team. So there would be the kind of silly chanting and the like, but usually by the time one gets toward the end of training, there isn't as much focus on that. What transpired on screen came off more as a sports team. And frankly cadets should know better than to try to fight a war on their own. Taking over and getting back home would have made them heroes as it was, but by waging war on their own like that they'd effectively gone rogue and stolen the ship. And frankly I don't understand why Nog, already a commissioned officer, would want to become a cadet again for a provisional rank. Yes, Red Squad was supposed to be an elite group, but he was already done with that, and frankly he should have known better than to go along with this group of cadets. Rather, he should have taken command and solved the warp drive problem in order to get them to the nearest starbase.
Similar threads
