USS Valiant (Pre-TOS, Eminiar VII)

[Lyon_Wonder]

Fifty years before Kirk and company visit the planet Eminiar VII in the 2260s, the USS Valiant is destroyed. I guess with the USS Kelvin now canon, it can be conjectured that the USS Valiant, registry NCC-1223 according to the trek encyclopedia, was a ship of the same or of a similar class. It doesn’t necessary have a to be a single-nacelle sister-class ship either, just a ship of the same generation, like maybe the conjectured Baton Rouge or Ranger Class.

PS: Any vessel named valiant has gotta be the unluckiest ship in the trekenverse. Starfleet should retire the name after the Defiant-class Valiant was destroyed in DS9.

 

[JNG]

It could be...if they are actually in continuity with one another, the film and the episode. So far, I am not at all sure this is the case.

I can't say if Kelvin is the right age because I am not sure if she is "state of the art" in the 2230s, an old stalwart, or somewhere in between.

 

[Praetor]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Valiant is the same class as Kelvin, but if it is indeed now canon, it should give us a much better idea of what the ship's aesthetic looks like and also a good idea how to detail the Baton Rouge and Ranger classes... and it is an extremely unlucky name.

Good thing the producers recanted naming the Defiant the Valiant.

 

[Wingsley]

That's the crazy thing about this new movie...

It is going to "flow" with TOS canon, or will it be a "reboot"? It looks to me like a reboot.

 

[Praetor]

But the Kelvin does look like a plausible midpoint between NX-01 and the original 1701, IMHO.

 

[Timo]

Hell, to me she looks like a sister ship to Franz Joseph's Saladins. Perhaps one of the original batch, but with an extra dorsal pod added for Destroyer Leader duties (sensors, support auxiliaries, extra C3I spaces), and before her great 2240s PB-31 engine refit...

As for the Valiant, I really don't want to see her as being part of any so far canonically recognized class. That would be utter waste of a good registry and name. I'd also prefer her to be somewhat less capable than Kirk's ship, to explain her succumbing to this in the end relatively puny opponent, without so much as sending an SOS.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

Eh, it wouldn't have to be that the Valiant was puny, just that it was suddenly caught by surprise. The Enterprise was already on alert when she got to Eminiar, due to several ships being missing, but the Valiant was first-contact. It's very possible that once lulled into a sense of relative safety, Eminiar just suddenly opened up on an unshielded and unprotected ship.

 

[Timo]

With real weapons? Why would they do that?

When they chose to fire on the Enterprise for real, it was after multiple rounds of threats, and lots of prevarication. It doesn't seem that they would have had the benefit of experience from a sneak attack on the Valiant on their side.

Then again, perhaps the crew of the Valiant was a bit more trusting, and a surprise strike with them sonic guns after a round of threats and another round of backpedaling would have worked on them. But if they didn't have a Scotty aboard, they probably didn't have a Fox, either...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herbert1]

Well James Kirk wasn't in command of the U.S.S. Valiant. It is my belief that the captain of the Valiant interpreted the Prime Directive and ordered the crew to disintegration chambers after the ship was "destroyed" by a simulated Vendikar "attack." The Eminiarian's then dismantled the ship. If they hadn't, the Vendikar would have attacked Eminiar VII with real weapons. The captain sacrificed him or herself and the crew of the Valiant to prevent Eminiarian deaths and the destruction of Eminiarian culture from the total war that would develop with the Vendikarians.

 

[Herbert1]

With real weapons? Why would they do that?

When they chose to fire on the Enterprise for real, it was after multiple rounds of threats, and lots of prevarication. It doesn't seem that they would have had the benefit of experience from a sneak attack on the Valiant on their side.

Then again, perhaps the crew of the Valiant was a bit more trusting, and a surprise strike with them sonic guns after a round of threats and another round of backpedaling would have worked on them. But if they didn't have a Scotty aboard, they probably didn't have a Fox, either...

Timo Saloniemi

Anan 7 spent an awfully long time trying to convince Kirk to order his crew to the disintegration chambers and a lot of time with threats. It seemed that he used the sonic guns as a last resort. Perhaps he feared that the Vendikarians would believe that they were the targets or the next targets?

I don't think that Anan 7 would have bothered if the Valiant had put up a fight.

 

[Herbert1]

When the publicity photo of the saucer section of the Kelvin was released, I immediately thought of Rick Sternbach's design for the Baton Rouge-class in the Spaceflight Chronology and I was hoping that they would have a retro design aesthetic for the new film. But after seeing more of the Kelvin, the relationship between this design and Sternbach's Baton Rogue-class disappeared in my opinion. Perhaps it would be stronger if Rick, or the old art department, had designed the Kelvin.

The relationship between the Valiant and the Ranger-class comes from the Last Unicorn Games RPG, so I doubt that the designers of the new film would be aware of the design or the connection. Neale "Vanguard" Davidson retro'd the design so that it looks like a contemporary of the Baton Rogue. The original sketch by Matt Jefferies just looks like TOS design elements moved around and that it is contemporary to the TOS Enterprise. Making the design a precursor came from fan fiction.

Since the design doesn't follow the TOS design aesthetic, I don't see her being a Saladin or Hermes class either.

I just don't see the new designs fitting nicely into the starship evolution charts. Which can be expected if a prequel is made forty some years after the original.

 

[Vance]

With real weapons? Why would they do that?

Moment of surprise? Hard to say. Could be that the Captain of the Valiant was just as disgusted with them (as the episode dialog reflects) and beamed up to the ship. The leader of Eminiar at the time could have just fired at that moment, with the ship in low orbit, and destroyed her.

I think the dialog in the show makes it clear that Eminiar not only destroyed the Valiant (as well as being the likely culprit in destroying other ships), but they had done so illictly and cowardly.

 

[Timo]

Agreed on that. It just doesn't necessarily make villainy sense for our villains to act in that manner, unless there were pressing circumstances - but there could well have been. And I'm beginning to agree that the Valiant need not be less capable than Kirk's ship in order to fail to send the SOS; quite possibly, those sonic cannon might have been capable of destroying the ship with one shot in the right circumstances.

Personally, I like the idea that the Valiant would be a Ranger or a closely related design. There would have been slightly bigger fish in the pond back then already, so the loss of NCC-1226 wouldn't have meant losing Starfleet's most prided representative and wouldn't have required an immediate response.

And I still tend to see Baton Rouge'ish influences in the Kelvin. At least Rick's big ship could be slightly reworked to the Kelvin aesthetics, creating a win-win situation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

Well, the Valiant would have to be too old (going by the Okudachron) to be a Constitution class ship, being a starship of the 2230's. So she's definately Baton Rogue era starship. It does seem a little odd that Star Fleet would wait so long to check out Eminiar after the loss of the Valiant, though it was explicitly stated that other vessels were being lost in that area as well. (Vendikar might have been doing the same thing as Eminiar, after all.)

 

[Praetor]

Maybe Starfleet was spread thinner than they'd admit and

--wait for it--

Enterprise was the only ship in the quadrant that could investigate... for twenty years!

 

[Herbert1]

Hopefully Ryan Church will give us details on what sources influenced his design decisions he made when creating the Kelvin and the new Enterprise.

 

[Vance]

Maybe Starfleet was spread thinner than they'd admit and

--wait for it--

Enterprise was the only ship in the quadrant that could investigate... for twenty years!

Honestly, it did occur to me that Eminiar may have been part of the 'frontier zone' pre 'Klingon War' , and was only recently opened up again to repeat the problems.. I dunno, hard to rationalize that bit.

 

[Timo]

It's consistent, though: Starfleet in TOS doesn't have the resources or the interest to investigate after missing starships immediately. At best, half a year will pass, unless the two ships, victim and investigator, happen to be really close to each other to begin with (as in "Doomsday Machine" or "Immunity Syndrome"). This persists even in TNG, as in "Arsenal of Freedom".

We could argue that Eminiar was far away, but why then would there be Federation shipping there, for the locals to prey upon? Or did the UFP extend in that direction only during the past fifty years? And why, if an earlier survey had gone missing and had not been followed up?

Yeah, the "war zone that has recently opened up" explanation sounds like the best of the lot...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Seconded... err, thirded.

 

[DaveyNY]

I don't think I've ever seen a pic of the BATON ROUGE Class.

Just what does it look like??