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USS ENTERPRISE HAYNES OWNERS MANUAL (Part 3)

It's interesting to see how based on a series of previews this book seems to have such an overwhelming negative connotation with fans.

That's because the fans are fucking idiots. Basement dwelling, overly obsessed with minutiae, can't be thankful for a nice book. If they did their own fanfiction and fanblueprints (that no one else ever cares for btw), they'd make stuff up as they go, too, and get things "wrong".

Some of you don't even get the point of a Haynes manual, do you? It's not like their drawings of cars, aircraft and ships are 100% accurate to the REAL stuff. So why would suddenly the fictional stuff be 100% accurate? Then the model of the TOS Enterprise is flawed in itself, as it is just a model of plastic and wood, deformed at parts and from the 60s. It's not "real".

So, in short: Get a life! There, I said it.
 
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It's interesting to see how based on a series of previews this book seems to have such an overwhelming negative connotation with fans. I have said my piece on the subject and until the book actually comes out I'll refrain from making any more comments. The fact that we're even getting this book at all is still excites me.

I am looking at this in a similar way. I can't in good faith form an opinion on something I haven't even really seen yet. So I will reserve making a judgment until I have all the facts. (I preordered it though. Good or bad it is going on my shelf. :rommie:)


And I have one last thing before I find something else shiny to look at. Since you folks brought up the debate about the original model I have been thinking about something. What is the Enterprise? Is she the massive vessel we see gliding through space on screen or the amalgamation of wood, plastic and glass sitting in the Smithsonian gift shop? Is she a grand technological idea or a fragile and flawed model parked in a glass box? But the most important thing about this question? There is not a right or wrong answer to it. The Enterprise, like beauty, religion and politics, is in the eye of the beholder. :bolian:
 
^ I'm not. I'm just pointing out that using a physical model with severe construction flaws as a blueprint source for what is supposed to be the "actual" ship is foolish, much akin to trying to blueprint a real car based on the measurements of a Hot Wheels car.

Not even close to what I was taliing about, and you probably know it.
 
The point still being that holding against the book the fact that the drawings are "not true" to a flawed model is just plain stupid.

And being an anal literalist is also stupid.
I'm just stunned how thoroughly you're warping my comment, just to be a contrary dick, when the cover drawing has so many CLEAR differences from the way the "real" ship is supposed to look BASED ON the 11 foot model. There, is that any clearer to the "I have to argue with everybody who isn't 100% literal on the internet" crowd?
 
Off the top of my head, based on 40 years of studying the ol' girl and trying to accurize model kits:

hayescorex.jpg


The only was this drawing has any validity is if they're trying to invent an upgraded version that falls between TOS and TMP, but that is clearly not the stated purpose of the book.
 
I see a trend in using automobile repair-manual publishing houses for sci-fict and sci-fact. I think the book TERRAFORMING was published by the SAE if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps they will do the ships of Stargate, now that that magazine is folding as Starlog and OMNI did.

Man, I would love the Promethius to get this treatment.

That being said:

I agree with Forbin's critiques above. Dang it.
 
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It wasn't a personal jab... you seem to think that people who follow the detail of the models have a fetish, a fetish I assume you don't share.

The fetish would not be one of caring about the details, but of dogmatically elevating one physical model (which was always a sort of approximation, a representation of a representation) to the status of a "perfection" by which everything else is to be judged.


After all, you did say:
"I love the big model too, but let's not make a fetish of it."
Right, my statement indicates that we have not yet made a fetish of it, but that if we were to get too carried away we could. It is a warning more than it is an accusation.

Yes, the big model deserves special consideration. Yes, it deserves a privileged place in governing our interpretations, but if we were to treat it as "the standard" absurd ramifications follow. The argument is a cautionary reductio.

On the other hand, you simply blurt out that I cannot follow details; much less friendly IMO.

The fact that you decided to apply a wider/stronger meaning to what I said (beyond the studying of the details of the Enterprise model) isn't my fault. But it is also not surprising given how you have applied ridged definitions (of your choosing) to what others have said.

LOL, you make it sound like I singled you out in a post when it's the other way around.

On the contrary, I have show how the rigidity of the suggestions of others has undesirable ramifications (i.e., the reductio).

Finally, I don't see how I have committed any sort of "party foul" with regard to widening or strengthening your meaning.

Frankly, I think that you perceived that I was making a different argument, and then jumped in. It's something we all do on occasion, but it is a source of confusion.

If your exaggeration of the meanings of what people say was aimed at Dennis, you should have limited your remarks to him. But it seems that you see everything as sharper and more extreme than intended... which makes discussions difficult.
Here is the problem. If you were sincerely reading my comments, in context, you would see that this is pretty much what I was doing (I say "pretty much" because there was another poster who chimed in on side opposition, and I am not the lead advocate here - I am flying as wing man for Darkwing Duck1 here - the point I am making is really an extension of his).

No, I don't take that personally. I haven't read the whole thread (but it sure looks like more of the same), so you are right and you give good advice. :techman:

OK, but if you do, I still hope you post pics of whatever model you're working on.
 
^^ Can't argue with any of that.

I still like the idea of having the book as a gag for the coffee table or a bookshelf.

I think it is safe to say, however, that when people try to cash in on Trek to make a quick buck details are not of the highest importance to them.

Then again, if we had a committee of Trek fans writing the book, they'd spend so much time arguing that they wouldn't ever get around to writing the thing.

And there is always the old adage about books and covers...
 
Um, the main germ of the dispute was Dennis' snarky comment (which I think was more of a yank-the-chain variety than an actual assertion) that the 11 footer is the alpha and omega as far as the Enterprise is concerned, oddball flaws, construction shortcuts, and all, so any plans or drawings that don't include the unfinished port side, the out-of-round saucer, and the assorted oddities associated with the nacelles, are automatically "wrong."

Agreed. We're getting off topic.
 
Way back in the dark days of the early to mid '70s I remember being ecstatic over getting FJ's blueprints and then his technical manual. I poured over those things endlessly. Of course, it didn't take me long to realize that there were a lot of things off about what he'd drawn. It didn't diminish other aspects of the works I did enjoy, but I no longer embraced them as definitive. They were essentially an early attempt to bring detail and a measure of logic and consistency to something fictional. And they inspired a generation or two of fans to build on what FJ had done.

With all due respect to FJ there are fans on this very board that have surpassed what he did. Through devoted and careful research and attention to detail individuals in subsequent years since FJ have offered up schematics and layouts that are far more consistent with what was seen and implied onscreen. There will likely never be a definitive version of the TOS E offered up, but we are close, closer than we could ever have imagined. When I look over the works of those who have made incredible efforts in detailing the layout of the Enterprise they all have elements that are just as right as the next guy even if they arrived at different solutions.

Candidly I'm very curious about this book as I am with many technical things from Star Trek, particularly the TOS and TMP eras. That said I suspect that whatever I find in that book it will be nowhere as authentic looking or as consistent with what was seen onscreen as the works of devoted fans I've seen on this very board. I believe that is partly because the objectives are different. The creators of the book are primarily interested in a somewhat slick looking quick reference work while the devoted fan is intent upon depicting a credible "real" version of a fictional construct.

In extent the original 11ft. filming miniature is also a representation of what the "real" thing is supposed to be. And for anyone intent on drawing a "real" starship enterprise then the filming miniature is the place to start, build on and extrapolate from.

I faced the same situation when drawing my TOS shuttlecraft schematics. I wasn't intent on simply drawing the filming miniatures and fullsize mockups and sets. I wanted to depict an integrated "real" vehicle that the sets and miniatures were supposed to represent. Inevitably there would be small compromises and alterations/adaptations to make it work, and thus it couldn't be identical to the miniatures and sets with built in compromises due to production realities.

It's no different when trying to depict the "real" starship Enterprise.
 
One of the things I like about new artists is that each may have a different take. Shaw does excellent work, same with Gary Kerr, Alan Sinclair and Charles Casimiro.

But I like Everheart or Joseph as well. FJs saucer has a nice look to it, and continues to serve as an Achernar, and as franklin Mints FASAs and Galoobs. I think that different drawings add a richness to the Genre. If I had done the book, I would have Shaw adjust Casimiro's as the TOS Ent, his three-footer work as Constitution, and the other artists works as the other Connie starships in the fleet, so all significant art work is rewarded in book form. Compromise?
 
There will likely never be a definitive version of the TOS E offered up, but we are close, closer than we could ever have imagined. When I look over the works of those who have made incredible efforts in detailing the layout of the Enterprise they all have elements that are just as right as the next guy even if they arrived at different solutions.

No doubt, that's the thing that is irking posters here. Even a quick-buck artist could easily look at the work that has been done by fans and produce a passable tech-book.

Then again, we haven't seen the book (at least, I haven't), so it seems too soon to judge.

In extent the original 11ft. filming miniature is also a representation of what the "real" thing is supposed to be. And for anyone intent on drawing a "real" starship enterprise then the filming miniature is the place to start, build on and extrapolate from.

Sure, I'd take the 11 foot model to be the central point of reference, but I would also compare that model to what we saw on the screen and against the design specs to which the model was constructed.

As you noted above, the best version we have of the Enterprise is something that fans have already produced.
 
Didn't somebody here actually have a scanner that was going to scan the model? I wonder if it has ever been scanned.
 
I don't think there's any way to 110% reconcile the differences between filming model, how it looked "on screen", and fan schematics... heck, as frakking awesome as Sinclair's prints are, even he got a few things a bit off. The best anyone can hope to do, is achieve a happy medium.
 
Off the top of my head, based on 40 years of studying the ol' girl and trying to accurize model kits:

hayescorex.jpg


The only was this drawing has any validity is if they're trying to invent an upgraded version that falls between TOS and TMP, but that is clearly not the stated purpose of the book.

My additional crits would be more basic - why does the deck 2/ deck 3 "teardrop" bubble and that long gadget at the back of the saucer (supposedly used to cover the bolts holding the model saucer on to the interconnecting pylon) look like they were drawn by a one-handed chimpanzee using an Etch-A-Sketch?
 
I don't think there's any way to 110% reconcile the differences between filming model, how it looked "on screen", and fan schematics... heck, as frakking awesome as Sinclair's prints are, even he got a few things a bit off. The best anyone can hope to do, is achieve a happy medium.

Agree, that is a common opinion with most science-fiction technical manuals.;)
 
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