Has anybody done any technical explication about that big vertical middle section on the Antares from the TOS-R version of “Charlie X” (and the Starfleet cargo ships from TAS)? I find myself imagining it as a detachable cargo module that slips out of the frame of the ship and makes planetary landings on its own power, to deliver its cargo and take on new material for transport.
USS Antares vertical middle section
- Thread starter FredH
- Start date
the Antares type seems to have crew spaces in there n their animated series appearance, based on the windows. suggesting it is not a removeable bit.
when one appears in LD "terminal provocations", the destroyed hulk seems to have large cargo modules within that space though, so it probably is a cargo bay however.
the modules look to be the large shipping containers seen in TMP and TWoK, and seen drifting elsewhere in the wreck (some of which spilled smaller hexagonal crates.)
TMP cargo pods:
(in TwoK the cargo pods Khan's people lived in where meant to be modified versions of these, but you can't really tell from the angle they were filmed at, especially with the blowing sand effects. there are production pics which show it more but i'm still trying to track them down again)
when one appears in LD "terminal provocations", the destroyed hulk seems to have large cargo modules within that space though, so it probably is a cargo bay however.
the modules look to be the large shipping containers seen in TMP and TWoK, and seen drifting elsewhere in the wreck (some of which spilled smaller hexagonal crates.)
TMP cargo pods:
(in TwoK the cargo pods Khan's people lived in where meant to be modified versions of these, but you can't really tell from the angle they were filmed at, especially with the blowing sand effects. there are production pics which show it more but i'm still trying to track them down again)
I think some kind of modularity—either swappable/detachable or fixed but easily modifiable—makes sense. It also clears up some of the “cargo transport” vs. “survey vessel” ambiguity of the episode—with a big, mission-swappable/customizable module it could easily be a cargo ship outfitted with survey equipment and/or scientific facilities (as was the case with many of late 18th/19th-century survey vessels, lots of shallow-draught fluyts, colliers, and troopships given new names and commissions).
The module looks too connected to the rest of the ship to be removable to me, since I don't see what looks like a good breakaway area. The Enterprise-D did not have a clear breakaway area, but it was 90 years newer and not a cargo ship.
That being said, I think the function of that space is not crew quarters but a large cargo hull that would be below the habitable area of the ship. The Antares had a small enough crew that they could all fit in the added front section that was added in TOS-R. If it held cargo pods of either type from the movie era, there must be doors we don't see to eject them: I don't think that Starfleet would want to rely on just transporters for a dedicated cargo ship.
I generally don't consider material made after 2009 to be canon, but whoever made that new version the animated cargo ship obviously did it with care, so maybe they did intend it to be crew space. Perhaps later versions had more crew or were used as "troop transports"?
As to the use of both the terms "transport ship" and "survey vessel": Someone (sorry I don't remember who) on one of these threads once suggested that the difference between this type of ship and an actual "scout" is that the crew are "surveying" for specific resources and therefore need a large cargo capacity to transport samples from several sites or even serve as cargo transports until dedicated cargo ships are sent to the area once the location of the resources are identified.
In Rick Sternbach's list of 6 main starship classes (explorer, cruiser, cargo carrier, tanker, surveyor, and scout) this would help explain why the differences between cargo carrier, tanker and surveyor when all three sometimes seem to used like scout ships.
That being said, I think the function of that space is not crew quarters but a large cargo hull that would be below the habitable area of the ship. The Antares had a small enough crew that they could all fit in the added front section that was added in TOS-R. If it held cargo pods of either type from the movie era, there must be doors we don't see to eject them: I don't think that Starfleet would want to rely on just transporters for a dedicated cargo ship.
I generally don't consider material made after 2009 to be canon, but whoever made that new version the animated cargo ship obviously did it with care, so maybe they did intend it to be crew space. Perhaps later versions had more crew or were used as "troop transports"?
As to the use of both the terms "transport ship" and "survey vessel": Someone (sorry I don't remember who) on one of these threads once suggested that the difference between this type of ship and an actual "scout" is that the crew are "surveying" for specific resources and therefore need a large cargo capacity to transport samples from several sites or even serve as cargo transports until dedicated cargo ships are sent to the area once the location of the resources are identified.
In Rick Sternbach's list of 6 main starship classes (explorer, cruiser, cargo carrier, tanker, surveyor, and scout) this would help explain why the differences between cargo carrier, tanker and surveyor when all three sometimes seem to used like scout ships.
Well the rear frame behind the drop down and between the nacelles should be a place to attach the first of a long line of tow-able cargo pods, but no one has yet designed those. It's a bit like the millennium falcon. you can transport something quickly inside the permanent cargo hold or you can move more slower by adding the exterior cargo pods.
What a survey ship needs is precision positional data, far beyond a Heavy Cruiser capabilities.
A long time ago, the Global Positioning System started up. The United States Military permitted civilian usage at thirty meter resolution. Ten meter resolution for Military usage.
So what happened? This wasn't good enough for the needs of some academics... they came up with Differential GPS...using the same system, limited to 30 meter resolution, they found a way for centimeter resolution to be generated.
Now keep in mind that for a Star Trek type transporter system to work requires extremely high definition of the transport target. Implying that this is very routine, meaning a very narrow angle "telescope" is required. But what is typically missed is that the processing power for transport is a significant power investment. Computationally speaking. But it is not ship positional, but rather target positional. To sum up:
Surveying is a very precise science.
A long time ago, the Global Positioning System started up. The United States Military permitted civilian usage at thirty meter resolution. Ten meter resolution for Military usage.
So what happened? This wasn't good enough for the needs of some academics... they came up with Differential GPS...using the same system, limited to 30 meter resolution, they found a way for centimeter resolution to be generated.
Now keep in mind that for a Star Trek type transporter system to work requires extremely high definition of the transport target. Implying that this is very routine, meaning a very narrow angle "telescope" is required. But what is typically missed is that the processing power for transport is a significant power investment. Computationally speaking. But it is not ship positional, but rather target positional. To sum up:
Surveying is a very precise science.
I think this matter of the transporter having very precise measurement capabilities may explain why it seems to be used to scan locations early on in TOS, not the least of which events was McCoy being able to get to the Guardian of Forever because the transporter was scanning its general area. If early TOS were followed, there is usually someone, often the ship's Chief Engineer, in that room working on jobs that require attention significantly, and the flashing lights may imply that it needs so much power the ship sends energy from other areas to power it.
Franz Joseph said the ship had 7 of them, but oh well
Franz Joseph said the ship had 7 of them, but oh well
Seven?
I count four standard six personal, two cargo, and five 22 personal emergency...
Another point: the spacial volume of a transporter is very well defined... each personal transporter 'disk' is a certain distance apart and diameter. This gives us a volume that would be scanned. Non intelligently - for just in case clauses. An intelligently scanned version would eliminate extraneous non active volumes, like empty air, but not where should be. Thus reducing the amount data required.
Picture the first transporters...then remember 'The Fly'...you may run screaming away now.
Seriously.
Going back to my favorite fan designed class 2 starship, the Durance class Cargo-Tug if her transporter wasn't A. I. then think about the number of errors that could and would show up...
I count four standard six personal, two cargo, and five 22 personal emergency...
Another point: the spacial volume of a transporter is very well defined... each personal transporter 'disk' is a certain distance apart and diameter. This gives us a volume that would be scanned. Non intelligently - for just in case clauses. An intelligently scanned version would eliminate extraneous non active volumes, like empty air, but not where should be. Thus reducing the amount data required.
Picture the first transporters...then remember 'The Fly'...you may run screaming away now.
Seriously.
Going back to my favorite fan designed class 2 starship, the Durance class Cargo-Tug if her transporter wasn't A. I. then think about the number of errors that could and would show up...
I apparently misremembered and far underestimated how many that book said there were...
Well, look at this way, the transporter was supposed to take a great deal of power; so two personal transporters to beam down and two to beam up. This allows for complete reset, meaning an emergency beaming is quite possible, immediately.
As to the cargo transporters, ship loading and unloading...
It is the emergency transporters that are quite interesting, five of them. Implying that ship abandonment is to be done within transporter range - no lifeboats.
The standard depiction of lifeboats in Star Trek, is silly at best. ??
Any lifeboat that can't keep you alive indefinitely, is suicide, completely the opposite of what is required.
As to the lifeboats in the original Star? The Primary hull is it.
As to the cargo transporters, ship loading and unloading...
It is the emergency transporters that are quite interesting, five of them. Implying that ship abandonment is to be done within transporter range - no lifeboats.
The standard depiction of lifeboats in Star Trek, is silly at best. ??
Any lifeboat that can't keep you alive indefinitely, is suicide, completely the opposite of what is required.
As to the lifeboats in the original Star? The Primary hull is it.
the torn open ship with cargo pods spilling out doesn't appear to be an antares type, and the antares type, while the hull is torn open, seems to only have framework in there.the Antares type seems to have crew spaces in there n their animated series appearance, based on the windows. suggesting it is not a removeable bit.
when one appears in LD "terminal provocations", the destroyed hulk seems to have large cargo modules within that space though, so it probably is a cargo bay however.
the modules look to be the large shipping containers seen in TMP and TWoK, and seen drifting elsewhere in the wreck (some of which spilled smaller hexagonal crates.)
TMP cargo pods:
(in TwoK the cargo pods Khan's people lived in where meant to be modified versions of these, but you can't really tell from the angle they were filmed at, especially with the blowing sand effects. there are production pics which show it more but i'm still trying to track them down again)
i think they just have a bunch of bays, and a central distribution system, in there
if being used as a personnel transport, just fill up most of the cargo bays with bunks. if there's more cargo than can fit in the bays, exteral pallets either clamped to the rear spars or towed by tractor.
Inside, we see a posted volume loading capacity for this cargo container: 42.5 cu. meters.(in TwoK the cargo pods Khan's people lived in where meant to be modified versions of these, but you can't really tell from the angle they were filmed at, especially with the blowing sand effects. there are production pics which show it more but i'm still trying to track them down again)
Based on my eyeball dimensions of the outside and inside photos, the main "room" is about 3 meters x 3 meters x 4.72 meters = 42.5 cu. meters. This TOS container size is much larger than the TMP cargo containers which I generously estimate the four unit group to be ~4 meters x 2.4 meters x 2.4 meters = 23 cu. meters at most. YMMV
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the first picture shows an anatares class, with its central vertical bit ripped open. if you open the pic in a seperate tab or zoom it to full size, you can see within the ship large structures inside, vertically across several decks, along with railings and walkways.
the 2nd pic with the hexagonal crates falling out? is the exact same shape and texture as the structures within the ripped open central section of the antares class in the first pic.
it's a cargo bay. one that holds the federation equivalent of Conex containers. which in turn hold their version of boxes.
