Wrong. I can't imagine why you would think this. I've already said upthread that I wish employers would deal fairly with their employees. Does that make me an advocate of crime?
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(US) Do you support a $15 minimum wage?
- Thread starter Robert Maxwell
- Start date
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True story.
A friend of my father started at a firm on the shop floor, persevered, and eventually made it to be a director of the company.
After a while, one of the other directors asked him what other directorships he had taken up. None he replied - I have a full time position here.
He was then advised to take other positions as you only have to do a few days a year and didn't have to have to do that much...
I think we can both agree that we would want employees to treat their workers fairly but at the same time I wouldn't want to relay simply on hope that will happen.
I've seen firsthand how unfairly people can be mistreated. I myself got fired after 13 years simply because I had to go inpatient because of panic attacks and I had nobody to cover for me during my route as a bulk carrier. I didn't even expect to be be paid for the day off and I still got fired.
My mom was and is still is working on a broken leg because she ran out PDEO's because she fell and hurt her leg and it took her to long to recover. She works in the kitchen at the local hospitial and then they switched to a different managment company which means she couldn't even go and get her leg checked out for awhile and had to wait weeks for a X ray because even though she has worked their for at least 20 years , under the new insurance she was basically seen as a new employee and hadn't accumilated enough time to get any time off so she l had to go to work even though she literally couldn't stand up.
This doesn't even count the fact she needs a knee replacement or they fix it so people can't do overtime to earn extra money. Making them pay for their own meals is like the final dick move they did and went ahead and did it.
Not to mention they have been trying to force older workers out for cheaper younger labor. She use to work 2 jobs but she can't do that anymore at her age.
To me being a criminal is more than breaking the law. It can be also about exploiting unjust laws and rules as well. Life is hard enough as it so and kind way to take the burden off the poor should be taken because when bad things happen to us it can be more than a inconvence but something that can ruin your life. Of course bad things can happen to people with wealth as well but at least they usually have a good place to start from in trying to recover.
Jason
It takes a particular type of gall to equate a well-to-do person whose lavish lifestyle occasionally exceeds their available funds with the type of people primarily being discussed the thread, which are those who are struggling to meet the basic necessities of modern life for themselves and their families like housing, food & water, utilities, daycare, medical care, clothing and accessories, schooling, communications, and transportation.
If you're not willing to engage in the discussion honestly, then don't bother.
This is exactly the problem. You're stuck in some forty-year-old pre-Reaganomics fantasy world where minimum wage jobs are primarily the experience of 16-year-olds working a temporary summer job for spending money instead of what corporations have made the new norm in their quest for ever-expanding upper management salaries and shareholders dividends at the expense of workers.
Read some news once in awhile. The world is not just based on your anecdotal experiences coming up through the workforce.
Our economy has changed, lest you think that the minimum wage is for teenagers. The average age of a fast-food worker is 28. And minimum wage jobs aren’t confined to a small corner of the economy. By 2040, it is estimated that 48 percent of all American jobs will be low-wage service jobs. We need to reckon with this. What will our economy be like when it’s dominated by low paying service jobs? What proportion of the population do we want to live on food stamps? 50 percent? Does this matter? Should we care?
Business people tell me they cannot afford higher wages. Not true. They can adjust to all sorts of higher costs. The minimum wage is much higher here in Seattle than in Alabama, and McDonald’s thrives in both places. Businesses adjust to higher costs, even when they say they can’t.
Our economy can be safe and effective only if it is governed by rules. Some capitalists actually don’t care about other people, their communities or the future. Their behavior, if left unchecked, has a massive effect on everyone else. When Wal-Mart or McDonald’s or any other guy like me pays workers the minimum wage, that’s our way of saying, “I would pay you less, except then I’d go to prison.”
http://billmoyers.com/2014/09/11/a-wealthy-capitalist-on-why-money-doesnt-trickle-down/
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9-things-the-rich-dont-want-you-to-know-about-taxes.html
Oh, and just to circle back to your misconception-based hypothetical 16-year-old, what's wrong with them earning a wage that's actually useful in saving for the exorbitant cost of going to college in the US these days? You guys constantly throw out platitudes about people bettering themselves (as if that's not what most people want to do), yet you seek to deny them the very opportunity to be able to do just that by earning enough to afford tuition, room & board, and other expenses.
Yes, because that's largely accurate, in the metaphorical sense.
But even if it did work as supply-siders theorize, the brutal reality is that the rich aren't investing almost half of their money (corporations aren't doing much better, as their record profits sit largely idle avoiding taxation). 40% of the assets of the wealthy are sitting in deposits: the rich person's equivalent of stuffing money into a mattress. Money sitting in deposits in Swiss and Cayman Islands accounts is essentially wasted wealth. It does as little good for the world economy as gold hoarded by a dragon in Middle Earth. It essentially sits there uselessly as an economic security blanket for the very people who need it least. By contrast, putting more money into the hands of the poor and middle class pays off immediately for the economy, as most people living paycheck to paycheck spend the money immediately or at least create a small backstop against bankruptcy and delinquency--thus creating immediate economic and social benefits. So not only does giving the rich more money not pay off when they do invest, it doesn't even have the opportunity to pay off at all since almost half of the money isn't even being invested.
http://www.alternet.org/economy/5-reasons-rich-are-ruining-economy-hoarding-their-money
The world's richest people are sitting on gigantic piles of cash that aren't earning them anything
Besides the fact that this is some callous, outdated, ignorant, spiking-the-ball bullshit that would make Jesus furious (I mean the Biblical Jesus, not the Gordon Gecko Jesus a lot of Christians seem to worship these days), considering that there have been a couple of people in the thread who have already told you they're getting paid minimum wage, it's getting dangerously close to trolling and flaming them. You may think you're trying to be motivational here, but it just comes off looking terrible.
We were having a pretty decent conversation about the merits or lack thereof of a $15 minimum wage without insulting large swaths of the country and some people in the thread prior to this, so let's get back to that. If people are just interested in condescendingly mocking those less fortunate than they are, see yourself out of the discussion.
You literally just quoted and gleefully complimented someone for saying exactly that before denying it existed right afterwards. Is that you, Kellyanne Conway?
Yes, why do people constantly get the wrong impression about you, scott? Maybe it's the things you say and the way you say them?
With all due respect, your opinion means about as much to me as apparently mine to yours. I don't really appreciate your attitude towards me or my opinion. Great way to convince people by attacking those who have a different opinion. I've notice that tread over the recent years that debates really no longer exists; they are replaced by attacks of dissenting opinions. It is a poor and ineffective technique. Quite frankly it pretty much negates your argument because I for one won't read whatever you wright after you attack me. Nice work Moderator!
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Expecting flowery language in return while you're verbally kicking poor people when they're down seems a tad unreasonable.
ETA: I see you had more to say...
I made numerous posts full of linked evidence contradicting your outdated myths about people earning minimum wage in America today without a hint of snark in them and not a single one of them made a dent in your opinion, so why break with tradition now? You never even presented counter-evidence or an opposing argument to them, you just kept restating your same opinions without evidence like they were facts.
Don't act like it was me saying "read some news" (goodness me!) that was the dealbreaker for you. You're obviously not interested in learning anything new, you just want to spike the football on people less fortunate than you are while you concern troll them with motivational platitudes about picking yourself up by your bootstraps.
There was a really good debate going on in this thread before a couple of you started insulting the posters who said they were on minimum wage, calling them lazy, unmotivated, moochers, and the like, and then you have the nerve to get the vapors and pull the old moderator meanie act because I said "read some news"? Boo fucking hoo. If you're going to punch down against poor people, you better develop thicker skin.
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I've had to survive on minimum wage, it's barely possible without working multiple jobs. Even then it's a struggle to pay for the most basic things. I truly believe the people who mock and insult the people on minimum wage are lacking in empathy and the most basic level of decency. They live in fantasy world where anyone can work hard and get a great job. It can't possibly be that life is hard and the entire system is rigged against so many people just to benefit the few. It can't possibly be true that you work your ass off day after day with no relief and still fall short.
So I'm fine with the minimum wage being raised because it will help people, it will help everyone in this country.
So I'm fine with the minimum wage being raised because it will help people, it will help everyone in this country.
Once again you are misrepresenting what is being said and are just plain making up stuff. Myself or anyone else did not verbally kick poor people down. Your naive viewpoints and wild jumps in logic are somewhat amusing and mildly annoying.
The system is not "rigged" against the poor. It's a fantasy to believe that an increase in minimum wage will not affect prices for goods and services. Where do you think the money for the increase wages come from; Santa Claus? No, it comes from increasing prices for both goods and services which makes it hard for people on minimum wage to afford the increase in prices. There is no magic bullet. Life is hard and it can suck for everyone. The only solution is to create (or retain) good paying jobs in the U.S. The average age of fast-food workers has increased because there are fewer decent jobs forcing older people to work at those sort of places for low wages. The trend will continue until it is beneficial for companies to operate in the U.S. as opposed to out-sourcing to other countries. It's not really rocker science.
Raising minimum wage will not accomplish anything without increasing the number of good paying jobs.
ALL jobs will be good paying at $15. That's more than enough for most people to live on. Even if my Wendy's combo goes up a few cents.
Businesses above a certain income line should offer minimum wage, but many small businesses have to fight to stay afloat and should be given every chance to do so and forcing minimum wage on them seems wrong. It is not a simple question, as you are dealing with companies in drastically different realities.
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Amaris
Guest
If you are small, and can't afford to pay an employee minimum wage, then you don't have enough work to justify hiring that employee.
I have a Bachelor's degree in economics from New York University that begs to differ.
But given your lack of intellectual depth on this topic, I'd rather get into a shouting match with my dining room table. That seems to have a higher chance of yielding a cognitive response worthy of my time.
It's kind of amazing how raising the minimum wage is supposedly a disaster if done, yet every place where it happens seems to work just fine. It's almost like the people against it don't know what they're talking about.
What's supremely ironic is many of these people are the exact same sort who will turn around and claim to be the standard bearer of "pro-life" and "family values" morality. The mental gymnastics one would have to go through in order to reconcile those disparate worldviews boggles the mind.
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Amaris
Guest
Only if one considers oneself capable of being wrong while defending God's side.
Pro-life and pro kicking children off healthcare. I've never believed for a second they ever cared about fetuses. It's just an excuse to control women's bodies.
Single-payer healthcare too. Apparently every country that has it has been on the verge of collapse since we started debating it here back in the mid-90s and again around 2008 if you believed the naysayer politicians and pundits, yet somehow their healthcare systems keep chugging along.
It's funny how the same ones who shout at poor people to "Just do it!" Shia The Beef-style and pull themselves up by their bootstraps despite all the obstacles arrayed against them can't extend the same expectations to our companies and states and country, who have a much better framework for actually pulling themselves up (hint: it's those same people they don't give a crap about in return). Yet apparently handling paying people a livable minimum wage or giving them universal healthcare is too hard to do here despite it working pretty well (not flawlessly by any means, but much better than here) overseas or like, immediately to our north across the border.
These same people will probably be the first to talk about American exceptionalism, yet their whole attitude when it comes to social programs is built around saying we can't do this or we can't do that when numerous other Western nations seem perfectly capable of pulling it off and having thriving economies at the same time. So where is this can-do attitude when it comes to helping your fellow Americans? It's like the whole country shot its wad after the Moon landings and has been coasting on it ever since. Quit being such fucking cants.
Thus current system of all the wealth only flowing upward to the 1% is unsustainable. I doubt it's eventually going to lead to revolution, because as evidenced by this thread and watching the news there are plenty of people on the mid and lower economic rungs of society who are perfectly willing to keep themselves in economic bondage and vote against their own self-interests. But it will lead to economic collapse eventually. If you think there are too many people on the dole now, just wait until companies keep offering nothing but entry level paying jobs and implementing more automation and outsourcing. Some of it is going to happen regardless because of technological advancements and our globalized economy, but we should still try and minimize the damage where we can, yet half the country doesn't seem the least bit interested in doing that, and strangely, it's the half that is often most in need of help.
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You do know that lack of education is not always, actually rarely, the fault of the individual, right?!
I'm also pretty fed up with this "responsible for themselves" bullshit, which is taking ideas from liberalism and existentialism and twist them around to use it to basically tell people to go fuck themselves. Humankind is a social species, we are instinctively primed to rely on each other, as well as helping each other out. This is the most basic thing about humans and society, and the only way to avoid that and really be just relying on yourself is to go back to nature and leave all human contact behind (but you'd also have to leave anything behind that somebody else made).
Well, hello, what have we here. Are you actually suggesting that I am being selfish and lacking in empathy?! Because that would be one hell of a switcheroo, especially considering that the topic of retirees hasn't even come up before you accusing me of wanting to see the elderly in poverty. Aside from it being a poor try of deflection, it simply is false. Just because I haven't talked about raising pensions for the elderly doesn't mean I want them to stay on a fixed income.
Actually, here in Germany, pensions have been traditionally tied to wage developments, so whenever wages go up, so do pensions.
Do you see where I'm going with this?! Because, you were quoting me on the idea of tying the minimum wage to inflation. And to think, the idea apparently didn't even occur to you that the same might be done with pensions, social security, etc., and you thought it would be a good argument that I didn't think about old people, speaks volumes.
As does that little titbit about me looking for an excuse to stay in a minimum wage job all my life. I've already stated that I'm doing a course of advanced vocational training, and yet, you apparently only remembered that I am paid minimum wage, and thus concluded (maybe coupled with me arguing for a raise in minimum wages) that I want to stay at this level for all my life. You also seem to forget the fact that I already worked hard enough to become assistant manager at the store I work at.
And you have the gall to imply that I'm a lazy moocher who wants retirees to suffer poverty. I do hope you have enough self-awareness left to be ashamed of yourself.
Looking at the accusations you threw in my direction, your outrage over the (in my opinion quite reasonable) comparison of you supporting might-makes-right economics with supporting crime, is funny as hell. You're such a snowflake.
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