Oh I feel like Riker wanted to as well, the point is that he didn't, so why couldn't Riker exhibit a similar level of restraint in Up the Long Ladder?He didn't. But I feel like he would have if given the chance.
Up the long ladder
- Thread starter hux
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But doth not the appetite alter? a man loves the meat
in his youth that he cannot endure in his age.
in his youth that he cannot endure in his age.
That's not what viable means, here. It means capable of living on their own at that moment, which at that point in time, the clones didn't appear to be at all.
I didn't say that they were. Note that I didn't say it was exactly like an abortion, either.
Viable also means "capable of living and developing under favorable conditions," for example a viable pregnancy.
The clones were in fact viable because they were continuing to develop toward maturity, toward their metaphoric "birth."
Viable also means "capable of living and developing under favorable conditions," for example a viable pregnancy.
The clones were in fact viable because they were continuing to develop toward maturity, toward their metaphoric "birth."
What Riker and Pulaski did were analogous to abortions, so the relevant concept is fetal viability. Abortions are more likely to be considered legal when the fetus is not yet viable in that sense of the word. Going by the look of them, and by the fact that Doctor Pulaski assented to their disintegration, the clones were not yet ready to survive outside their growth chambers (analogous to the uteri) so they were not yet viable (analogous to fetal viability).
I've been reluctant to step into the crossfire here, but whether or not one agrees with the sentiment IRL, I always took the clone-killing as an obvious (and fairly heavy-handed) pro-choice allegory on the part of the show-makers. Doesn't one of the characters even say something to the effect of "We have the right to control what's done with our own bodies"?
I hate to admit it, too, that abortion does seem to be referenced here, quite strongly. I don't know how to feel about that, because, for one thing, even when this episode came out, abortion was perfectly legal and Constitutional.
If Human Cloning weren't illegal, the fact is that cloning, even now, after it's had every opportunity to perfect itself, is still quite primative. The idea is to manually take out the genes from an egg and implant them with the genes of the clone donor, so that the egg treats the new genes as it would a sperm cell.
This technique takes multiple attempts to get to a proper clone, so the rejected embryos which are then discarded could, in theory, be considered as an abortion. However one feels about the subject of abortion is irrelevant though, as mentioned, it is the law. Even the father has no say in the matter. So, the fact that Human Cloning is frowned upon in this type of Real Life setting has always astounded me. The ban on Human Cloning really should be lifted ...
If Human Cloning weren't illegal, the fact is that cloning, even now, after it's had every opportunity to perfect itself, is still quite primative. The idea is to manually take out the genes from an egg and implant them with the genes of the clone donor, so that the egg treats the new genes as it would a sperm cell.
This technique takes multiple attempts to get to a proper clone, so the rejected embryos which are then discarded could, in theory, be considered as an abortion. However one feels about the subject of abortion is irrelevant though, as mentioned, it is the law. Even the father has no say in the matter. So, the fact that Human Cloning is frowned upon in this type of Real Life setting has always astounded me. The ban on Human Cloning really should be lifted ...
I am a devout Roman Catholic. Abortion is very distasteful to me and we are taught that it is most definitely the murdering of an unborn child. And yet ... even in Christ's time, the concept that the world could be overcrowded, at all, was just unimaginable. It can't happen. And yet, so out of that world, abortion is not only legal in this country, but it's protected under the constitution. Stem Cell research required the use of fetuses, in the early going, to get the investigation started into the many benefits it offers. Cloning could do even more. Biblical parables simply aren't equipped to handle these kinds of philosophical questions. It's a hell of a challenge to be true to your beliefs and to face facts, as well ...
On a lighter note if they didn't kill their clones, the clones would inevitably end up as evil-alternate versions bent on destroying the galaxy. Kill them now or in a climactic space batter later, what's the difference? Therefore I judge it to be a good move on their part
Quite right, Makarov. Unfortunately, the way T.V. tropes work, I am forced to agree with you. One thing I love about The Next Generation - and there are many things I love about this series - is that it at least adds relevant, or controversial issues to the pot, often times, to up the antie. Even in a documentary, no issue is ever so fully explored, really ... even more so with television. But they do make a show more relevant, or at least, they add something substantive to the texture, or flavour, of an episode. And with a show like Up the Long Ladder, it needs it, certainly, if it is to hold up, over time ...
On a lighter note if they didn't kill their clones, the clones would inevitably end up as evil-alternate versions bent on destroying the galaxy. Kill them now or in a climactic space batter later, what's the difference? Therefore I judge it to be a good move on their part
One is murder, one is self defense.
The thing I hate about this episode is what happens after. You'd think Picard/Riker would be a little more pissed off that this government is cool with kidnapping/cloning against people's will. All their leaders should be thrown in the brig. But instead they just chill in the conference room and have the worst resolution to an episode in the entire series.
I would've liked this episode more if they just let the clone society crumble
I would've liked this episode more if they just let the clone society crumble
Why are you being all weird and internetty....most people do not associate monogamy with marriage at all...couples who are not married consider themselves monogamous and couples that are married, usually consider themselves monogamous specifically because the relationship is sexually closed....am i losing my marbles here or something?!
This isn't a debate about the literal meaning of the word monogamy, it's a debate about the cultural meaning, especially in the context of this episode and the obvious interpretation of Pulaski's suggestion
They're a sovereign state (sovereign planet) collecting genetic tissue from visitors is perfectly legal under their legal system.
Riker and pulaski were simply unaware of this fact.
Ignorance of the law in no defense.
If any of this was addressed in the actual episode, the very quality of this episode would've improved, tremendously. The ideas are all there, in TNG's First Season, they're just not executed as well as they could've been ... unfortunately.
Sometimes I think Star Trek chickened out by inventing weird metaphors for real world issues. In this case it's sexual assault and abortion. And there we have Riker phasering a clone.
If Star Trek ever returns to TV, in the current television environment, it needs to tackle issues like that directly. Someone of the crew gets raped, and opts for abortion. Bam.
If Star Trek ever returns to TV, in the current television environment, it needs to tackle issues like that directly. Someone of the crew gets raped, and opts for abortion. Bam.
No way, Star Trek has to be entertaining, not an after school special. You could replace any issue on the show with a mundane real life issue.
Unless you really think that having an episode where Picard literally gets sexually assaulted is better than the Borg capturing him, I'd say this way is better
Unless you really think that having an episode where Picard literally gets sexually assaulted is better than the Borg capturing him, I'd say this way is better
Allegory allowed TOS in particular to tackle topical issues that never would have gotten past the censors if they'd addressed the issues in question directly.
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