Up The Long Ladder... Cloning?

[Ferengi Prime 5]

A random look through the thread about the most disliked episode of TNG: "Up the Long Ladder" seems to be the most disliked, but it raises a question about cloning. In the Star Trek universe, I can not believe cloning is not a common practice throughout the Federation and other space-faring societies. I know ego, vanity, greed, and inheritance would make cloning a common practice in the Star Trek universe.

 

[Uncle Sock]

Ego, vanity, and greed are supposed to be eliminated in the Federation—at least among humans. And since humans had such a major influence on the Federation, I’d assume that expectation applies to the other member species as well.

Cloning might also be considered too close to genetic engineering, which is banned in the Federation. That could explain why Riker and Pulaski seemed so appalled by the idea of cloning.

With non-Federation cultures, like the Bajorans, things appear to be a bit different.

 

[Mojochi]

Ego, vanity, and greed are supposed to be eliminated in the Federation—at least among humans. And since humans had such a major influence on the Federation, I’d assume that expectation applies to the other member species as well.

Cloning might also be considered too close to genetic engineering, which is banned in the Federation. That could explain why Riker and Pulaski seemed so appalled by the idea of cloning.

With non-Federation cultures, like the Bajorans, things appear to be a bit different.

I've always thought the same thing about the cloning subject. Suspiciously close to genetic engineering

That said, none of them seem to have an issue with engineering weeks/months earlier, at the Darwin station lol. Maybe that experience left a bad taste

They also seem to be crap at cloning clones

 

[Uncle Sock]

Yeah, the Darwin station was pretty odd. Seems like the writer of the week forgot about the whole ban thing.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

The ban on genetic engineering wasn't part of canon until it was introduced in the fifth season of DS9. And personally, I don't harbor any dislike of "Up the Long Ladder" at all, and wonder why anybody does.

 

[Set Harth]

Ego, vanity, and greed are supposed to be eliminated in the Federation—at least among humans.

Do what now?

 

[Uncle Sock]

The ban on genetic engineering wasn't part of canon until it was introduced in the fifth season of DS9.

You're right. Since this has been retconned, though, it can explain why Riker and Pulaski were so appalled. Even without an explicit statement that genetic engineering is illegal, we were already aware of Khan and the Eugenics Wars by the second season of TNG. So, if I were Riker or Pulaski, I'd probably feel uncomfortable too. Maybe it was more about their DNA being stolen without consent than about cloning itself. I'd have to rewatch the episode to see how the others felt about cloning in general.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're right. Since this has been retconned, though, it can explain why Riker and Pulaski were so appalled. Even without an explicit statement that genetic engineering is illegal, we were already aware of Khan and the Eugenics Wars by the second season of TNG. So, if I were Riker or Pulaski, I'd probably feel uncomfortable too. Maybe it was more about their DNA being stolen without consent than about cloning itself. I'd have to rewatch the episode to see how the others felt about cloning in general.

Riker let his transporter clone from season 6 live, who then banged Dee.

If you suspected that your twin brother was going to bang your ex-wife, maybe you don't kill him, but you could lock him in a basement for 3 years.

 

[Mojochi]

Riker let his transporter clone from season 6 live, who then banged Dee.

If you suspected that your twin brother was going to bang your ex-wife, maybe you don't kill him, but you could lock him in a basement for 3 years.

Tom Riker is not explicitly a clone. He is, in every way they can measure, just another William T. Riker. The clones in their narrative all have a replicative fading, genetic drift situation, that Tom does not, as well as other markers I'd imagine. Tom is indistinguishable from Will, except for the neurological differences of having lived different lives for 8 years.

 

[Frostscape One]

In the conference room scene after they found those Riker and Pulaski clones, Riker himself said they had control over their own bodies. Both of them were pissed, and rightfully so, that they were shot unconscious and had their dna stolen without consent.

I also completely agree with them in vaporizing the clones. It was their dna and they had the right to do that.

I disagree with people who called it murder, though. They weren't formed yet.



Regarding Darwin station in "Unnatural Selection"...

It wasn't until DS9 season 5 that established genetic engineering is illegal, which on the surface is a retcon. (And an understandable law.)

But I do wonder if what Dr. Kingsley and her group were doing was already knowingly illegal because right up until the moment Pulaski went down to the station, she was VERY cagey and secretive. Even Troi said she wasn't saying the whole truth and recommended caution in dealing with her. It's possible they some projects, like those kids, away from the books and Federation prying eyes.

(Events in "DAGGER OF THE MIND" prove that sometimes a Federation facility can harbor secret projects from other Federation eyes.)

 

[Maurice]

n the Star Trek universe, I can not believe cloning is not a common practice throughout the Federation and other space-faring societies. I know ego, vanity, greed, and inheritance would make cloning a common practice in the Star Trek universe.

Why not? Because a clone isn’t you, identical DNA doesn’t make identical people. Even identical twins aren’t perfect copies; epigenetics, brain development, and life experience all push them in different directions. A clone would be the same: they might look like you and share some tendencies, but their wiring and epigenetic patterns would shape them into a completely separate person.

In story my guess would be that people tried it, didn't like the results, and knowledge of that has tamped down the desire for copies that actually ain't.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tom Riker is not explicitly a clone. He is, in every way they can measure, just another William T. Riker. The clones in their narrative all have a replicative fading, genetic drift situation, that Tom does not, as well as other markers I'd imagine. Tom is indistinguishable from Will, except for the neurological differences of having lived different lives for 8 years.

They are both equally fake.

The real Will Riker died.

But because the first Will duplicate was treated as if he was a real person for 15 years, it would be unfair to disenfranchise his "brother" with equal claim to the identity, immediately after finding his freedom from that shitty planet he was marooned on.

 

[UssGlenn]

It wasn't until DS9 season 5 that established genetic engineering is illegal, which on the surface is a retcon. (And an understandable law.)

But I do wonder if what Dr. Kingsley and her group were doing was already knowingly illegal because right up until the moment Pulaski went down to the station, she was VERY cagey and secretive. Even Troi said she wasn't saying the whole truth and recommended caution in dealing with her. It's possible they some projects, like those kids, away from the books and Federation prying eyes.

Darwin Genetic Research Station

PULASKI: "Genetically engineered? "
KINGSLEY: "Not engineered, created. Perfect in every way. Their bodystructure, their musculature, their minds."

They must be dancing right on the line, creating from scratch rather than modifying, a technicality.

 

[Frostscape One]

Darwin Genetic Research Station

PULASKI: "Genetically engineered? "
KINGSLEY: "Not engineered, created. Perfect in every way. Their bodystructure, their musculature, their minds."

They must be dancing right on the line, creating from scratch rather than modifying, a technicality.

Damn thin line. Kingsley was too hush hush about them until she was forced to go into details.