United Earth in the Star Trek universe

[Sci]

My thought is that the minister we saw in Demons/Terra Prime was some kind of diplomat, and not the member of a parliament.

Well, there's no reason he can't be both. Charles Flanagan is serving concurrently as both the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade of Ireland and as the Teachta Dála for Laois. Stéphane Dion is both the Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Member of Parliament for Saint-Laurent.

It seems unlikely to me that Nathan Samuels (the character you are thinking of) was a member of the United Earth civil service, though. The title of "Minister" in governmental systems that use it is generally reserved for members of the Cabinet who head the various executive departments (such as a foreign ministry) -- and in parliamentary systems, those people are usually concurrently serving as Members of Parliament. So it seem likely to me that Nathan Samuels was a Member of the United Earth Parliament, in addition to whatever other office he was holding.

On top of that -- he seemed to be directing United Earth's foreign policy in "Demons/Terra Prime" rather than merely executing the policy a higher-up had devised. So to me, that implies that he's not just a civil servant; he's exercising the powers of state.

The novels actually do refer to him as Earth's Prime Minister. Which would make some amount of sense, it would explain why he had the authority he did over Archer, including the ability to assign another captain to the NX-01.

I mean -- sort-of? The novels establish Samuels as United Earth Prime Minister, but they are deliberately vague as to whether or not he was Prime Minister during "Demons/Terra Prime." Canonically, he was only ever addressed as "Minister." And as I noted above, he did seem to be directing United Earth's foreign policy rather than merely executing someone else's policies.

However -- it's notable that Hoshi was legally empowered to nullify his orders aboard the NX-01 bridge when he tried to issue orders to the crew. As Hoshi noted, Smauels was not part of the United Earth Starfleet chain of command.

To me, that implies two possibilities:

1) That Samuels was the United Earth Foreign Minister during "Demons/Terra Prime" but not the Prime Minister; and/or,

2) That the United Earth Prime Minister is not legally part of the UESF chain of command.

Neither possibility precludes the other. In many parliamentary republics, the Prime Minister isn't part of the military chain of command; rather, the President (or sometimes the Defense Minister) serves as commander-in-chief. The President or Defense Minister will issue the orders the Prime Minister wants them to (and sometimes Prime Ministers will even appoint themselves as concurrent Defense Ministers, as Winston Churchill did when he served concurrently as Prime Minister and Defense Minister during World War II), but legally the P.M. isn't actually part of the chain of command.

Personally, I just assume that Samuels was United Earth Foreign Minister during "Demons/Terra Prime" and that his party won a general election held right afterwards, becoming Prime Minister just in time for the books. But that's just me.

 

[Tenacity]

As Hoshi noted, Samuels was not part of the United Earth Starfleet chain of command.

Exactly who Starfleet was "working for' was always unclear, Archer worked for Forrest, and Forrest had superiors within Starfleet.

But who was directly above them?

All we have is guess work, and comparisons to modern day. Is Starfleet's relationship to United Earth essentially the same as say NASA to the US government?

Or is there a disconnect at some point and Starfleet is separate from United Earth's direct control and possesses more independence?

 

[Sci]

Exactly who Starfleet was "working for' was always unclear, Archer worked for Forrest, and Forrest had superiors within Starfleet.

But who was directly above them?

Security at the United Earth Embassy on Vulcan was provided by officers of Starfleet, so it seems pretty clear to me that Starfleet is a United Earth government agency the same way, say, the Coast Guard is an agency of the U.S. government.

All we have is guess work, and comparisons to modern day. Is Starfleet's relationship to United Earth essentially the same as say NASA to the US government?

Or is there a disconnect at some point and Starfleet is separate from United Earth's direct control and possesses more independence?

Well, we see Starfleet in ENT executing government policy and engaging in diplomacy on behalf of United Earth, so it can't be a private organization or business.

So it's really not guesswork, it's just common sense: It is the United Earth Starfleet and it takes orders from the United Earth government.

 

[Gary 11's]

I didn't realise Starfleet and United earth ever coexisted. I thought Starfleet emerged from the federation, founded by such planetary governments such as United earth.

 

[The Wormhole]

I didn't realise Starfleet and United earth ever coexisted. I thought Starfleet emerged from the federation, founded by such planetary governments such as United earth.

Never watched Enterprise, I take it?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I didn't realise Starfleet and United earth ever coexisted. I thought Starfleet emerged from the federation, founded by such planetary governments such as United earth.

In Enterprise's time frame, United Earth is an independent world with Earth Starfleet as its space force.

Later, Earth became one of the Federation's founding members (along with Vulcan, Tellar and Andor). After that, United Earth became a Federation member world. Also, Earth Starfleet was replaced with the Federation Starfleet - despite the name, the two Starfleets are NOT the same organization.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Is Starfleet's relationship to United Earth essentially the same as say NASA to the US government?

Personally I've always viewed Starfleet as a blend of NASA, the Navy, the UN, and an assortment of other scientific, diplomatic, and military organizations. Kind of like the much-derided yet accurate description that Pike gave in ST09: "[Starfleet] is a peace-keeping and humanitarian armada."

EDIT: If I were the screenwriter for ST09, I probably would have rewritten that line as "Starfleet is a scientific and diplomatic armada." I still like the line though.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Also, Earth Starfleet was replaced with the Federation Starfleet - despite the name, the two Starfleets are NOT the same organization.

I sincerely doubt Enterprise was made with the idea that the Starfleet in it was anything other than an early version of the same organisation Kirk and Picard would work for.

 

[Tenacity]

Personally I've always viewed Starfleet as a blend of NASA, the Navy, the UN, and an assortment of other scientific, diplomatic, and military organizations.

The UN component of your list would likely be more United Earth than Starfleet.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

The UN component of your list would likely be more United Earth than Starfleet.

True. I was thinking more like UN peacekeeping forces or NATO.

 

[Tenacity]

^ That sounds about right.

 

[Sci]

I sincerely doubt Enterprise was made with the idea that the Starfleet in it was anything other than an early version of the same organisation Kirk and Picard would work for.

Even if it's an "early version" in the sense of having a similar function, ethos, and personnel transferring over, it can't be legally the same institution -- for the same reason that the Massachusetts Naval Militia can't be legally the same institution as the United States Navy: It's a force raised by and answerable to an entirely different sovereign state, which later subsumed itself into the larger federal polity to which the subsequent force answers.

Besides, if the United Earth Starfleet is just an early version of the Federation Starfleet, we then have to ask ourselves why the Andorian Imperial Guard, Tellarite space force, and Vulcan space force aren't "early versions" of the Federation Starfleet, too.

 

[Ithekro]

Oddly, Section 31 seems to be based out of the Earth Starfleet's charter, rather than the Federation Starfleet's, unless they just added the like for that Section into the Federation charter at the same point for reasons.

It is possible (though unknown why) the Earth's Starfleet because the Federation Starfleet because they are the weakest of the local powers, and thus the 'safest' to have as the neutral central body for the larger Federation space defense and exploration department, as they already had an infrastructure and would not cause hostilities between members if the new force was based on the Andorian Imperial Guard, or Vulcan High Command.

 

[Tenacity]

we then have to ask ourselves why the Andorian Imperial Guard, Tellarite space force, and Vulcan space force aren't "early versions" of the Federation Starfleet, too.

Because they're not?

Starfleet's insignia dates back to one seen painted on a late 2060's Earth space probe.

The ship designs are (seemingly) direct descendants of 22nd century Earth designs. Using neither Andorian nor Vulcan 22nd century observed ship and engine designs.

If Earth ships are being used in Federation service, this might be a explanation.

 

[Sci]

Because they're not?

That implies a disturbingly Human-centric Federation then. If the Federation's military is basically controlled by Earth, how is the Federation not just another Terran Empire? It certainly makes Azetbur's characterization of the Federation as a "homo sapiens-only club" more defensible.

The ship designs are (seemingly) direct descendants of 22nd century Earth designs. Using neither Andorian nor Vulcan 22nd century observed ship and engine designs.

I'm not entirely convinced of this, actually. The use of a thin vertical hull connecting the the primary hull to the engineering section may be descended from the Vulcan Suurok class's vertical hulls connecting directly to their ring nacelles. And the main hulls of the Andorian Kumari class share some similarities to a Constitution class's engineering section and nacelles -- and, for that matter, the Defiant class may have some ancestry with the Kumari class, too, since both are relatively squat hulls with low vertical profiles that emit their energy weapons from twin emitters kept low and even with the ship near the nacelles. So I think a decent argument can be made that the Constitution class represents a syncretism of NX-, Suurok], and Kumari-class ship designs.

If Earth ships are being used in Federation service, this might be a explanation.

Problem is, once the writers created the Federation, they stopped referring to Starfleet ships as "Earth" ships. Throughout the rest of TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY, Starfleet vessels are referred to as Federation starships. In STIV, when Kirk and company stand trial for stealing the Enterprise, they are charged with theft of "Federation property" -- not "United Earth property." O'Brien in DS9 talks about taking an oath to defend and obey the Federation, not United Earth.

One possibility might be that ownership of the UESF was legally transferred from United Earth to the Federation, but that again brings us back to why the same thing wasn't done to the other founding worlds' forces and the uncomfortable implication that they were not all equal under the Federation. I think it makes a lot more sense (and is a lot less troubling) to acknowledge that the Federation Starfleet and United Earth Starfleet are separate legal entities with separate state loyalties, instead of thinking they must be the same institution just because they both have the word "Starfleet" in their name. The ground forces of the Russian Empire and the ground forces of the Soviet Union both used the word "army" (а́рмия) in their name, and the latter inherited a lot from the former -- but the Imperial Russian Army and the Workers' and Peasants' Red Army were clearly not the same legal entity.

 

[Shawnster]

I'm not entirely convinced of this, actually. The use of a thin vertical hull connecting the the primary hull to the engineering section may be descended from the Vulcan Suurok class's vertical hulls connecting directly to their ring nacelles. And the main hulls of the Andorian Kumari class share some similarities to a Constitution class's engineering section and nacelles -- and, for that matter, the Defiant class may have some ancestry with the Kumari class, too, since both are relatively squat hulls with low vertical profiles that emit their energy weapons from twin emitters kept low and even with the ship near the nacelles. So I think a decent argument can be made that the Constitution class represents a syncretism of NX-, Suurok], and Kumari-class ship designs..

Engineering is engineering. Ships aren't designed based on fairness for all nations involved.

Perhaps the design elements of the entire starship were farmed out to the various members. Earth engineers designed the hull, Vulcan engineers designed the propulsion, Andorian engineers designed the weapons systems, etc...

By Kirk's era the engineering might have changed some after the various member had 100 years to learn how to work together. By Picard's era cross-species engineering might be completely seamless. However, by this time 200+ years of tradition happened so ships still tended to look like they always did with a saucer, engineering hull, outrigger nacelles.

Why are we limiting design elements just to the founding members? Shouldn't the younger members have an equal say? What Enterprise-D design elements were created by Betazoids or Deltans or...?

Real world - oh, yes, the Federation and Starfleet has ALWAYS reflected a very human centric and North American Earth centric philosophy. Part of that is the fault of the writers and part of that was playing to their audience - humans from Earth. We know it's a TV show so we expect designs to be the same or similar over the 50 years (ship shapes, department colors, rank structure, etc...) Photon(ic) torpedoes, Phase(r) weapons. Ships named mostly after Earth historical figures (and most of them from North American or Western European history).

Very little nods, reference, names, etc... are taken from African, Asian or Scandinavian culture. Not much representation of Latin American, Mesoamerican or Native American culture. You probably can add all these non Western/European/North American cultural references together and still be a minority of the Earth culture represented in Star Trek.

 

[The_Baroness]

To be fair, we don't know that Andoria , Vulcan , even Earth don't still maintain their own native fleets. Perhaps for local defence while the Federation Starfleet tackles the wider stuff .

 

[Kor]

People in the future will look different.

As cultural and national barriers break down as they rightfully should on a truly united Earth, then multi-racial people should have a much greater presence, maybe even becoming the majority. This is one thing that Trek has generally neglected over the years. We get characters who are part human and part alien, but hardly anyone who comes from more than one Earth race or ethnicity.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

That implies a disturbingly Human-centric Federation then

Maybe not so much the Federation which is shown to be diverse, but we do tend to see a Human-centric Starfleet.

Maybe it's something like with NATO, where America's military is three times the size of all the other members combined.

Earth contributes more than any other Federation member, that why we see so many Humans (and Human ships).

then multi-racial people should have a much greater presence, maybe even becoming the majority.

Kind of a disturbing thought, but maybe future people actively seek out "a reproductive partner" to perpetuate distinct genetic diversity. Both of Sisko's wives were black, Worf's adopted parents were both white, Kirk's (alternate universe) parents were both white. There are exceptions to this, the O'Briens were a mixed race marriage, Spock's parents were different species.

 

[The_Baroness]

Or maybe it's as simple as with Starfleet academy being on Earth, it's just easier for humans to attend...

Then again, we know Sarek wanted spock to join the Vulcan science academy, perhaps again, the species all have their own organisations still in force but aimed decide to join the wider Starfleet too. . .