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uniforms

samantha31

Ensign
Red Shirt
i watched an episode of ds9 and they where they went back in time to the enterprise.and they put on the old uniforms.
and it got me thinking about voyager.
chakotay.janeway,and paris wear red.most others yellow and a few blue uniforms.
i thought senior officers wore red,engineers yellow and medical blue.

but ive noticed a few other people walking about in red so can someone explain or point me to where i can find out who wears what?

as tuvak is senior officer and hes in yellow.

thanks again and i hope these silly questions are ok to ask
 
ENT and TOS
Command: Gold
Eng/Security: Red
Science/Medical: Blue

TNG, DS9, VOY
Command: Red
Eng/Security: Gold
Science/Medical: Blue
 
so would that mean paris is above tuvak in chain of command i thought tuvak was above paris?

TNG (and +) era commissioned Starfleet officers operate via the following basic command structure...

Ensign, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander, Commander, Captain, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral, Fleet Admiral.

With that said it doesn't matter what your commissioned rank is; anyone can be assigned to the status of senior officer. For example on Voyager the Operations department was led by Ensign Harry Kim, who in turn was a senior bridge officer. On the Enterprise the Operations department was headed by Lt. Commander Data, also a senior bridge officer. So to answer your question both Paris, and Tuvok were senior officers, Tuvok held the rank of Lieutenant (later promoted to Lieutenant Commander) outranking Lt. Junior Grade Tom Paris. (who was actually instated with a filed commission if memory serves). Does that make sense now?
 
so would that mean paris is above tuvak in chain of command i thought tuvak was above paris?

No. Paris was just in the command division but Tuvok was a higher rank, a department head, and designated second officer (3rd in command after Janeway and Chakotay).
 
hi,
.
i have just finished watching voyager season 2.purely because it was avaliable.i never seen all of season 1 so just read each episode guide so i knew what was happening..ive seen bits and pieces of TNG,DS9,VOYAGER. while its been on cable tv.like seven of nine etc but have decided to stop watching random episodes on tv and watch all of it in order.as its confusing.
.
im now going to watch TNG followed by DS9,then the others seasons of voyager.
i loved season 2 of voyager.
but to get back to the uniforms etc.
is command mean there in charge as theres loads of young people walking around wearing red although you dont know who they are.

tuvak is 3rd in command but wears gold.paris is under him but wears red.

now ive just started to watch TNG ive watched first 2 episodes of season 1 and its a bit fake looking and poor acting.but i have seen later episodes and loved it so im guessing it gets far better as it goes on.
like the councellor earing the very short blue dress.yet when i seen random episodes later shes wearing all in one tight suites etc.

anyway this is whats confusing me.in the first episode.
worf,colm,geordie.are all wearing red yet i know further on they wear gold as ive seen some future epsisodes as i said,

so does this mean they are all going to get demoted in rank etc?

or am i get the uniforms wrong completely.
does red colour not mean commanders?

as surely they young girl wearing red in the first episode of TNG cant be in commandas riker called her ensign?


sorry if im being a pain here but i really want to try and understand it
 
I've been watching Star trek since I was three and I don't think it confused me then and it certainly doesn't confuse me now!!!

There are three departments or divisions (we'll ignore the movies for now!!).

Command, Sciences and Operations.

Within these devisions people have certain specialities, for example in the original series Sulu specialised as a pilot/helmsman and Chekov was a navigator. However as a Command department Ensign, Chekov would still have to take order from Spock or Scotty who were Commanders by rank in their respective Divisions.

The chain of command is more important than department.

Command division officers are probably specialists in the 'art' of commanding ships, people and situations (e.g. intergalactic diplomacy).

In the TNG episode "Disaster" the whole command crew were cut off from the bridge. The bridge was being run by Counsellor Troi, Ensign Ro and Chief O'Brien. The chain of command put Troi in charge because she had a rank of Lt. Cmdr. Ensign Ro was a command officer but by rank and lack of experience couldn't take charge. Similarly, O'Brien was the most experienced in terms of time served in Starfleet but as an NCO was below the other two. Despite this he was in charge of commissioned officers in DS9. This isn't strange as NCOs train officer recruits in the Army.
 
hi,
is command mean there in charge as theres loads of young people walking around wearing red although you dont know who they are.

It is better to think of the TNG-VOY red-shirters as being "command track" officers than just "officers in command." A red shirt lieutenant would be a generalist, hoping to progress one day to command of a starship or other position of general leadership and responsibility. The command track stresses training and experience in the big picture of starship operations; planning missions, moving the ship from place to place, and occasionally combat. I think we tend to see lots of helmsmen in red, meaning red might also include helmsmen and pilots even if they don't aspire to management positions. (Didn't Geordi and Worf start out as drivers on the Enterprise?)

The gold shirts and blue shirts are specialists. While they may be competent leaders and have a place in the formal chain of command, they are not progressing toward commanding their own ship, station, etc. There are some that do, but that goal was not the focus of their career. As already mentioned, gold shirts specialize in some area of ship operations: engineers, security, etc. Blue are the sciences, including applied sciences like medicine and counseling.

like the councellor earing the very short blue dress.yet when i seen random episodes later shes wearing all in one tight suites etc.

The counselor seems to wear whatever she wants in the early seasons. Thankfully, they put her in a proper uniform later on.

worf,colm,geordie.are all wearing red yet i know further on they wear gold as ive seen some future epsisodes as i said,

so does this mean they are all going to get demoted in rank etc?

Geordi moves from his ship driving assignment on the bridge to become chief engineer, and Worf takes over Tasha Yar's job after she leaves.
 
yes i understand whos in what command its the colour of uniforms im asking about.
i knot belani toress is in charge of engineering etc but she wears gold.yet theres very young crew members walking around in red.
now in TNG geordie.obrien,worf are all in red yet further on in the series they are in gold.
if nobody knows that fine but i assumed the red colours meant people in charge.
voyager tuvaks in gold.paris in red yet tuvak is above paris.
voyager theres loads of young people in the mess hall wearing red surely they cant be above tuvak.
 
yes i understand whos in what command its the colour of uniforms im asking about.
i knot belani toress is in charge of engineering etc but she wears gold.yet theres very young crew members walking around in red.
now in TNG geordie.obrien,worf are all in red yet further on in the series they are in gold.
if nobody knows that fine but i assumed the red colours meant people in charge.
voyager tuvaks in gold.paris in red yet tuvak is above paris.
voyager theres loads of young people in the mess hall wearing red surely they cant be above tuvak.


Geordie and Worf both started in the command division, but transferred out later.

The color of the shirt is not the first determining factor, the number of pips/stripes is the factor. Even then it's also up to the individual chain of command for each ship. You could have a captain in charge, with a lt commander as first officer and a lieutenant as second officer. Then, you could have your ship's chief medical officer be a full commander, but that doesn't mean he's higher than the first or second officer. So your blueshirted doctor might technically outrank the 1st and 2nd officer in red or yellow shirts, but they have been *assigned* to higher positions than the doctor so he has to follow their orders.

Any better?
 
Here, let me take a whack at explaining it.

On a starship, everyone has a different job. Each person's job can be distinguished by what colour uniform they wear. The uniform's colour is, more or less, unrelated to rank (except in the case of Captain and First Officer. The Captain and First Officer will always wear Red, but others can wear Red as well).

If you work as a security officer, an engineer, or some sort of technical skill (operating the transporter, for example), you will wear YELLOW.

If you work as a doctor, nurse, or some sort of scientist, you will wear BLUE.

If you pilot the ship, command the ship (or help command as the First Officer), or do other general tasks on the ship NOT RELATED to the Blue or Yellow colours, you will wear RED.

If you are a new officer, like an Ensign, you can choose whatever job you want, meaning you can choose to wear Red, Blue, or Yellow (or, more accurately, you begin to choose your career path in Starfleet based on what you study at Starfleet Academy, prior to graduation/being commissioned to serve as an officer on a starship. For example, you can't just decide to be a Starfleet Doctor when you're on the ship -- you must first go to Starfleet Medical). As you progress in rank, you can switch jobs whenever you want. That is why anyone who is not the Captain or the First Officer can be whatever rank in whatever colour uniform.

So, in summary, the colour of the uniform determines what your job is on the ship. The individual's rank determines a chain of command, irregardless of colour. That being said, certain specialists will hold a higher rank on the ship, but will not be put in positions where they will have to command the ship (such as the Chief Medical Officer or the Chief Engineer, since they are busy doing other important jobs and do not have experience commanding a starship even though they may hold the rank of Lt. Commander, for example).

O'Brien, Worf, and Geordi all started out as young officers that did not work in Engineering, Security, etc. However, as their careers progressed, they switched jobs to become Transporter Chief (O'Brien), Security Chief (Worf), and Chief Engineer (Geordi). They switched from wearing RED to YELLOW, but also progressed in rank. They were not demoted, as they are the senior ranking officer in their particular job (they're like the boss of Engineering or Security). They are still required to take orders from anyone ranked above them, but since their jobs are separated, you will not often see a Lt. Commander that works in Security ordering around a Lieutenant that works in Engineering, even though they could if they wanted to.

ex: Tuvok was a Lt. Commander in rank on Voyager, but his job was Chief of Security. He could theoretically order around B'Elanna, since she was only a Lieutenant, but he doesn't because she knows more about Engineering.



OK, so, if you are still confused, we'll start over.

On a Starship, it is useful to be able to quickly tell what a person's job is on the ship. In the Federation, this is done with a three colour code structure. The colours are as follows:

Red: Command, pilots, nonspecific
Blue: Science, Medical
Yellow: Engineering, Security, Operations (technical or computer work)

The only ranks that are required to wear RED are the Captain and the First Officer. Everyone else that is lower in rank (Lt. Commander and below), will be in whatever colour that their job requires, despite their rank. The rank does not determine the colour (unless you are a Captain or a Commander), but it does determine the chain of command. So, if a BLUE officer outranks a RED officer, the RED officer has to follow the BLUE officer's orders.

Thus, a young Ensign can choose to wear RED. This does not mean they are in command of a starship; rather, they're training/learning to one day hold a position of executive power, such as Captain or First Officer. They are outranked by just about everyone on the ship, despite wearing RED. For example, Worf started out wearing RED, probably because he wanted to one day command a ship. As he rose in rank, he chose to work in Security, and thus wore YELLOW. As he continued still to rise in rank, he switched back to wearing RED, probably because he was hoping to be a First Officer or Captain soon.

Two points of confusion:
1. Anyone wearing RED is said to be in the Command Department, as in their 'job' is to command. The term "Command" should be thought of more as what they're training to do. A Lieutenant wearing RED is receiving training in making executive decisions and commanding a starship (in general), instead of training to work as an engineer (for example). This young, RED officer is specifically looking to command a ship one day (instead of being a great engineer, for example), even though they're not actually Commanding anything as a Lieutenant. They are, essentially, learning how to command a starship. They're still subject to the orders of any officer that outranks them, even if that officer wears YELLOW or BLUE.

2. Some officers will be called Commander even though they are not wearing RED. For example, Data is referred to as "Commander Data" even though he wears YELLOW. Why is Data not the First Officer? Because Data's rank is actually Lt. Commander, but in the military, it is customary to refer to a "Lt. Commander" as "Commander" for short, since it would be degrading to refer to them as "Lieutenant." Therefore, Lt. Commander Data wears YELLOW, since he is not a Commander by rank nor is he First Officer or Captain, but may still be referred to as "Commander."





Now, to make things even more confusing: In the Star Trek series set before TNG (such as The Original Series and Enterprise), the colours of YELLOW and RED were switched. Thus, before the 24th Century (the time period of TNG, DS9, and VOY), the colour structure was as follows:

Yellow: Command, pilot, miscellaneous
Red: Engineering, security, operations
Blue: Science, medical

While Enterprise was made AFTER Voyager, it followed this old colour scheme since it was set in the time period before TOS.



The Final Word:
An individual's rank determines whom they have power over. An individual's colour determines their job on the ship.
 
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hi dasher.your first paragraph was all i was looking for plain and simple.

On a starship, everyone has a different job. Each person's job can be distinguished by what colour uniform they wear. The uniform's colour is, more or less, unrelated to rank (except in the case of Captain and First Officer. The Captain and First Officer will always wear Red, but others can wear Red as well).

i fully understood engineers etc yellow.i guessed greenish blue medical.it was the red that threw me...
but your a star dasher soon as i read your first few lines i understood.

oh and kevas there really was no need to be fesesious.i dont believe for one minute you understood star trek at 3 years old.you really are a very ignorant self righteous chap arent you.
self praise is no praise.
star trek has lots of flaws my friend.and i was unsure about colours of uniforms ok.
ive only watched 3 episodes of DS9 yet ive found flaws so i was checking ok.
if your going to make comments like that i really dont see why your on here.
maybe in your real life you lack confidence,self esteem i dont know,maybe your bullied.maybe your just a nasty little person but to say a statement like that and try and belittle me on a forum tends to tell me your lacking something.
and im pretty sure its a brain
 
thanks also milo i forgot to add you explained it aswell.i guess your meaning the wee studs on the neck.
thanks for your patients and dignified response you must have been thinking along kevas lines but took the time to be polite and helpfull
 
sorry for mulitple posting but dasher your a real hero.ive now read all your post and am fully aware of everything now which will make my enjoyment better.
as i said at the start of the post.i fully understood the ranks.it was just the colours.as i thought only the top brass wore red.
and seeing young people in red i got confused.
its very much appreaciated you took the time to explain it fully.

thanks again
 
No problem. As a side note: just because an officer achieves the rank of Captain or Commander, they don't have to command a starship if they don't want to. They can continue to work as an engineer or whatever they want, even though they hold the rank of Captain. Typically, this officer will still follow the orders of the Captain in RED since the 'Red Captain' has command experience, even though this officer may technically "outrank" the 'Red Captain' in terms of how long they've each held the rank of Captain (in the US Navy, when two officers hold the same rank, I believe authority is given to the officer who has held that position longer). This is rare, though (at least from on-screen evidence), and I doubt an officer would advance past Captain to an Admiral without actual command experience. And as far as I can tell, wearing RED is the fastest way to rise through the ranks.
 
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Hey, Samantha31, it's OK to be confused, even though the color scheme is supposed to make the distinctions among officers easier to discern. Of course, modern Trek was a bit better at delineating these differences. In TOS, two of the colors were reversed, that is, command officers wore gold and operations officers (engineering, security) wore red. And while Spock was first officer, he was also science officer and wore blue. How's that for a bit confusing? -- RR
 
I don't think all officers start out as Ensigns, either. Does anyone know for sure? I mean, didn't Valeris and Saavik go to a type of Command Graduate School, and come out as Lieutenants? And I'm sure that graduates of Starfleet Medical (Bashir) were not Ensigns upon graduation. There must be a similar graduate-type school for Engineering....
 
I don't think all officers start out as Ensigns, either. Does anyone know for sure? I mean, didn't Valeris and Saavik go to a type of Command Graduate School, and come out as Lieutenants? And I'm sure that graduates of Starfleet Medical (Bashir) were not Ensigns upon graduation. There must be a similar graduate-type school for Engineering....

This is true, Dasher. Perhaps these folks are in the top two or three spots in their class, and as such, don't start out as ensigns upon graduation. As I recall, Bashir was second in his class at Starfleet Medical, and was a lieutenant, j.g. upon arriving at DSN, which was, as I recall, as he had just finished med school. Valeris and Saavik I think were supposed to be lt. j.g.'s though, despite the wrong rank pin for Valeris. Real world, I don't think this happens, though -- newly minted officers in the U.S. Army, Marines, and Air Force start out as second lieutenants, and Navy officers start out as ensigns. -- RR
 
In general, I've found that thinking about anything in Star Trek too hard/long just results in a headache (and many new threads on this board). There are a million things that can be nitpicked. It's just best to go with the flow and enjoy Trek for what it is. :techman:
 
I don't think all officers start out as Ensigns, either. Does anyone know for sure? I mean, didn't Valeris and Saavik go to a type of Command Graduate School, and come out as Lieutenants? And I'm sure that graduates of Starfleet Medical (Bashir) were not Ensigns upon graduation. There must be a similar graduate-type school for Engineering....

This is true, Dasher. Perhaps these folks are in the top two or three spots in their class, and as such, don't start out as ensigns upon graduation. As I recall, Bashir was second in his class at Starfleet Medical, and was a lieutenant, j.g. upon arriving at DSN, which was, as I recall, as he had just finished med school. Valeris and Saavik I think were supposed to be lt. j.g.'s though, despite the wrong rank pin for Valeris. Real world, I don't think this happens, though -- newly minted officers in the U.S. Army, Marines, and Air Force start out as second lieutenants, and Navy officers start out as ensigns. -- RR

Doctors are directly commissioned as full lieutenants in the US military.
 
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