Unification Part 1

[Dukhat]

^No, I'm pretty sure Sela was just an incompetent as BillJ said, and the entire plan was incompetent, and there was no other, better plan, since Vulcan was never actually invaded after the fact. Which, in-universe, was probably why we never saw Sela again after this, as she was most likely executed for said incompetence.

 

[BillJ]

^No, I'm pretty sure Sela was just an incompetent as BillJ said, and the entire plan was incompetent, and there was no other, better plan, since Vulcan was never actually invaded after the fact. Which, in-universe, was probably why we never saw Sela again after this, as she was most likely executed for said incompetence.

It's funny. The only time the Romulans actually come across as threatening in TNG is in "The Neutral Zone". The rest of the time, they come across as incompetent boobs. They fared a bit better in DS9 and Enterprise.

 

[Timo]

If the cover story is Vulcan invasion, then obviously the real goal isn't Vulcan invasion. And we have no particular reason to think the Romulans failed to reach their goal.

The E-D stops the convoy; a cloaked warbird destroys it. Why would this happen? The warbird could just as easily have destroyed the E-D and proceeded with the attack if that were the intention. Is it of any significance that Vulcan defenses were alerted? They are the only thing besides the E-D that stands between the invaders and Vulcan, now that the convoy has safely transited the RNZ, and they would have been standing between those in any case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Reeborg]

In formulating this plan do you think it dawned on anyone that the guy with the British accent might not fit in among the Romulans?

Considering that both Picard and the Romulans are speaking English to begin with, I don't see how Picard's accent is really the problem here.

No you are wrong they are all speaking Romulan originally. What we hear is the dubbed English version.

 

[Dukhat]

If the cover story is Vulcan invasion, then obviously the real goal isn't Vulcan invasion. And we have no particular reason to think the Romulans failed to reach their goal.

And what goal would that have been, exactly? Because the episode makes it pretty clear that the invasion of Vulcan was approved by Neral and assisted by Pardek and unwittingly assisted by Spock. Sela was just the military mind in charge of the invasion process.

 

[T'Girl]

Surak of Vulcan

How many Vulcans live their day to day lives based on Surak's teaching and best selling book series?

How many only give socially acceptible lip-service?

How many in a street interview would respond "Surak who?"

The E-D stops the convoy; a cloaked warbird destroys it.

I do wonder if the cloaked warbird was with the transports the whole time, or if was sent at high warp speed to destroy them only after Spock's transmission.

 

[Timo]

Because the episode makes it pretty clear that the invasion of Vulcan was approved by Neral and assisted by Pardek

Only in a tableau played out in front of Spock - an obvious campaign of disinformation!

How many Vulcans

Good question. We know something about internal divisions in the Vulcan society in the ENT era, but little or nothing later on. Perhaps we could draw lines between those who say "Live long and prosper" and those who don't?

I do wonder if the cloaked warbird was with the transports the whole time, or if was sent at high warp speed to destroy them only after Spock's transmission.

I sort of suspect the former, no matter what conspiracy theory I'm currently vying for. After all, high speed and cloaking don't really mix too well, and the whole point of the "dissident convoy" was to get across the RNZ, supposedly because other means of sailing across it would trigger all sorts of alerts.

 

[Dukhat]

Only in a tableau played out in front of Spock - an obvious campaign of disinformation!

Which comes back to my original question: what was their goal then, if not Sela's plan? Because Vulcan was not invaded. As a matter of fact, to my knowledge, nothing whatsoever happened after "Unification" to promote a theory that there was some other nefarious plot against the Federation that Sela's plan was just a smokescreen for, or at least anything that would cause the Federation to wage war on the Romulans for something like, say, a planetary invasion.

 

[Timo]

Well, I've always seen the two Vulcanoid cultures as the two Koreas. One is sort of accessible to our thinking, even if with some weird customs. The other is completely alien and seemingly insane, despite having very recognizable traits, ones familiar to us from our very own history books.

What happened here is right out of the textbooks of Kim <insert name>, just as with most of the other TNG or DS9 Romulan exploits: lots of bolstering, major expenditure of military resources, some completely unacceptable violence, plus the mandatory oppression of one's own citizens and brutalizing of enemy agents - all to a purely propagandist gain, with no territory acquired, no enemy forces negated, and no immediate return in evidence.

But people will have seen that Kim Neral doesn't shy away from acting, that Kim could destroy the Federation or at least its key planets whenever he wanted, that Kim is a formidable ally for all those in the not-so-exclusive club of UFP arch-enemies, and that Kim is completely nuts and thus not to be ignored or taken lightly.

As for a Federation response, well, the Romulans know out of long experience that that will never happen...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

What happened here is right out of the textbooks of Kim <insert name>, just as with most of the other TNG or DS9 Romulan exploits: lots of bolstering, major expenditure of military resources, some completely unacceptable violence, plus the mandatory oppression of one's own citizens and brutalizing of enemy agents - all to a purely propagandist gain, with no territory acquired, no enemy forces negated, and no immediate return in evidence.

But people will have seen that Kim Neral doesn't shy away from acting, that Kim could destroy the Federation or at least its key planets whenever he wanted, that Kim is a formidable ally for all those in the not-so-exclusive club of UFP arch-enemies, and that Kim is completely nuts and thus not to be ignored or taken lightly.

I never got the impression at all that Neral was in any way insane, not even when they used a different actor for him in DS9. You're really stretching here to justify what was just a bad plan.

As for a Federation response, well, the Romulans know out of long experience that that will never happen...

Not sure what you're talking about here.

 

[Timo]

Well, every episode that ever featured Romulans. They always commit acts of war, and there never is war.

I never got the impression at all that Neral was in any way insane

Is Kim Jong Un insane? Were his predecessors? It still very much appears that North Korea is insane as a nation - it's a survival strategy that seems to work very well for them.

Every Romulan plot so far has bordered on the insane, and violated all codes of conduct familiar to the audience. None have led to the Star Empire triumphing in a conventional fashion, but the sum total of them still sees the Star Empire survive in face of conventionally superior enemies. "Unification" IMHO fits splendidly in the succession of silly Romulan plots, with all the classic characteristics: unclear goals, unnecessary complexity, unnecessary brutality, unclear outcome thanks to unknown victory conditions, total lack of UFP retaliation. That's Romulans for you, ever since "Balance of Terror".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Well, every episode that ever featured Romulans. They always commit acts of war, and there never is war.

Er, yeah, because they were always stopped before things escalated into war. So what's your point?

Is Kim Jong Un insane? Were his predecessors? It still very much appears that North Korea is insane as a nation - it's a survival strategy that seems to work very well for them.

Every Romulan plot so far has bordered on the insane, and violated all codes of conduct familiar to the audience. None have led to the Star Empire triumphing in a conventional fashion, but the sum total of them still sees the Star Empire survive in face of conventionally superior enemies. "Unification" IMHO fits splendidly in the succession of silly Romulan plots, with all the classic characteristics: unclear goals, unnecessary complexity, unnecessary brutality, unclear outcome thanks to unknown victory conditions, total lack of UFP retaliation. That's Romulans for you, ever since "Balance of Terror".

So? The same thing could be said of the TOS Klingons. Or the Cardassians. The point was that Sela's specific plot didn't make a whole lot of sense, but that was probably because she was an incompetent 20 year old kid trying to score brownie points with the Praetor and failing miserably, not because anyone was insane.

 

[Timo]

Er, yeah, because they were always stopped before things escalated into war. So what's your point?

There's no "before" as such, no logical criterion of whether the Romulans stopped short of some systematic limit. There's just the UFP deciding that whatever mass murder the Romulans committed this week must again count as "before", because the UFP never goes to war over anything the Romulans do.

Romulans in some episodes are foiled before they kill anybody. Typically, though, they kill lots of people, and/or obtain key Starfleet secrets, and/or humiliate Starfleet in various ways. They always provide casus belli (if not otherwise, then by virtue of implicitly having violated the Neutral Zone treaty). Starfleet never bites.

The point is that only the UFP would fail to go to war over these things.

The same thing could be said of the TOS Klingons. Or the Cardassians.

Not really. The only time the Klingons have an "audacious plan" is when they poison the quadrotriticale at K-7, and that's neither obvious casus belli nor something they get away with scot free (they apparently lose Sherman's Planet because of it). When Klingons violate borders, Starfleet mobilizes warfleets and invades back. When Romulans violate borders, Starfleet tiptoes and hopes the Romulans don't get mad because their violator was forced to self-destruct.

With Cardassians, there's a single episode where Starfleet shows restraint, and "The Wounded" quotes the rationale that the force is spread thing, apparently due to the recent Borg nastiness. When the Cardassians try again, Picard blows up a starship; when they still don't learn, Jellico places mines on a fleet of starships. When they after a long pause resume their efforts, Starfleet starts a war that leaves the Union in smoking ruin.

The point was that Sela's specific plot didn't make a whole lot of sense, but that was probably because she was an incompetent 20 year old kid trying to score brownie points with the Praetor and failing miserably, not because anyone was insane.

Somebody would have to be insane if an incompetent kid were to be let to try something like that.

OTOH, rational people could well be using the insanity stratagem just as happens in real life, such as at the Korean peninsula. If you aren't a top dog, you can always pretend to be a mad dog. Foaming at the mouth is great protection against your enemies!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ghrakh]

The invasion plan was a bit simplistic but, like other supposedly incompetent Romulan plots, it's just a storytelling device that needs to work in an episode that involves other things besides that. Unification part 2 had it's share of problems that went well beyond the invasion plot imo. Anyway the occasional Romulan encounters throughout TNG's run were entertaining. The Romulans were for the most part devious and the Federation treaded lightly. I'm glad the show didn't jump the shark by getting caught up in a Romulan war.

None have led to the Star Empire triumphing in a conventional fashion, but the sum total of them still sees the Star Empire survive in face of conventionally superior enemies.

Never got the impression the Federation had a superior force. Quite the opposite.

 

[Nebusj]

Only in a tableau played out in front of Spock - an obvious campaign of disinformation!

Which comes back to my original question: what was their goal then, if not Sela's plan? Because Vulcan was not invaded. As a matter of fact, to my knowledge, nothing whatsoever happened after "Unification" to promote a theory that there was some other nefarious plot against the Federation that Sela's plan was just a smokescreen for, or at least anything that would cause the Federation to wage war on the Romulans for something like, say, a planetary invasion.

Best theory that I have, and it's drawn from Timo writing years ago, and I admit that it pretty much assumes everything we're given on-screen is a lie:

The Actual Romulan Goal: to discredit or dispose of their own dissidents who seek a reconciliation with Vulcan.

What the Romulans tell their own dissidents: that they are going to prepare a ``peace ship'' containing thousands of members of the movement, who'll be dispatched to Vulcan in an audacious but possibly status-quo-shattering move.

What the Romulans tell Spock and Picard: that the ``peace ship'' flotilla is actually an invasion force.

What Spock and Picard conclude: that the ``peace ship'' flotilla has to be destroyed before an incalculable slaughter is done.

What the Romulans do: blow up the ``peace ship'' flotilla on their own once Spock and Picard ``reveal'' the supposed truth.

This scheme is contorted, yes, but it resolves a lot of plot holes (why did Sela leave Spock, Picard, and Data alone with a transmitter, exactly, again, unless it was to get them to send the message they did?). Since the ``peace ship'' flotilla is destroyed by the Romulans themselves somewhere near Galorndon Core there isn't even much of a casus belli; the most that the Romulans have done to the Federation is steal and destroy a couple junk spaceships. That's resolved by a reparations bill, not a war, especially if they can claim that Sela Yar was carrying out a daft scheme, as the invasion plot obviously was.

The Romulans have killed a dissident faction, rather literally, and who knows how many of the leaders of it; they can even sell it to their own populace as the Federation refusing to even let a peaceful expedition be heard.

 

[Timo]

That's an important point to consider: military action is usually more for the benefit of interior politics than for exterior ones.

Wars are fairly seldom fought in order to defeat the enemy, as there are so few actual benefits to victory nowadays - conquering land is more trouble than worth, resources or wealth could be better gained by other means, and negating of threat is frowned upon by the international community. What matters is the impression created. If one acknowledges that conquest never was the aim, then any outcome can be declared a great victory and accordingly celebrated.

Again, the analogy to the mysterious North Koreans couldn't be more accurate. The closed society lets visitors see what they want to see, that is, what they expect to see, but it's all propaganda nevertheless - and what really matters is what the locals themselves see. Federation agents deviously infiltrated Romulus under disguise! This suspicious character Spock was in cahoots with them! A great conspiracy was afoot, but our brave warbirds put an end to it with their powerful disruptor beams! This while operating in enemy space with impunity! While the devious Vulcans can't be trusted, they are still our brothers and sisters and efforts at reunification continue, now under proper state control! Sunshine tomorrow afternoon! Plomeek for everybody! This concludes our war tonight.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Somebody would have to be insane if an incompetent kid were to be let to try something like that.

And yet, that seems to be exactly the case.

The Actual Romulan Goal: to discredit or dispose of their own dissidents who seek a reconciliation with Vulcan.

Well, okay, but...

What the Romulans tell their own dissidents: that they are going to prepare a ``peace ship'' containing thousands of members of the movement, who'll be dispatched to Vulcan in an audacious but possibly status-quo-shattering move.

What the Romulans tell Spock and Picard: that the ``peace ship'' flotilla is actually an invasion force.

What Spock and Picard conclude: that the ``peace ship'' flotilla has to be destroyed before an incalculable slaughter is done.

What the Romulans do: blow up the ``peace ship'' flotilla on their own once Spock and Picard ``reveal'' the supposed truth.

This scheme is contorted, yes, but it resolves a lot of plot holes (why did Sela leave Spock, Picard, and Data alone with a transmitter, exactly, again, unless it was to get them to send the message they did?). Since the ``peace ship'' flotilla is destroyed by the Romulans themselves somewhere near Galorndon Core there isn't even much of a casus belli; the most that the Romulans have done to the Federation is steal and destroy a couple junk spaceships. That's resolved by a reparations bill, not a war, especially if they can claim that Sela Yar was carrying out a daft scheme, as the invasion plot obviously was.

The Romulans have killed a dissident faction, rather literally, and who knows how many of the leaders of it; they can even sell it to their own populace as the Federation refusing to even let a peaceful expedition be heard.

No offense, but that's a ridiculously convoluted way for the Romulans to get rid of a few dissidents. It would be easier and more effective to just shoot them all outright.

Plus, you state that it was really a bunch of dissidents on those ships. You'd think they'd be smart enough not to trust their government and to know NOT to get on those ships in the first place. And if they were just dissidents, why the need for a cloaked warbird anyway? The Romulan government could have just set those ships to explode halfway to Vulcan.

Finally, Unification is an internal Romulan problem. They do not need to tell Picard or Spock a fucking thing about their plans to quash it. Sela's blurting out the plan to them completely smacks solely of her own incompetence as a military strategist, as is her incompetence in giving them access to a transmitter. It's just Dr. Evil (or every actual James Bond villain) all over again.

No, based on what we see in the episode, there's nothing to insinuate that this silly plan is anything but the actual plan the Romulan government was endorsing. Especially since there was never any time in the future where someone said, "Hey, remember when the Romulans pulled a fast one on us by letting us think they were going to invade Vulcan, but then it turned out that was bullshit and they did something even more terrible?"

 

[Timo]

And yet, that seems to be exactly the case.

But you just claimed Neral didn't appear insane?

Unification is an internal Romulan problem.

Which is exactly why they would prefer to solve it through conflict with outsiders. At least if they watch 20th or early 21st century newscasts and learn...

Especially since there was never any time in the future where someone said, "Hey, remember when the Romulans pulled a fast one on us by letting us think they were going to invade Vulcan, but then it turned out that was bullshit and they did something even more terrible?"

Then again, the heroes never say things like that. Which is why we still wonder how come the Borg "advanced" before ST:FC even though the heroes never told us whether they conquered the Argolis Cluster or not.

It's only Q who exclusively pesters the UFP through Picard's person or at least his starship. Romulans would probably be involved in devious plots left and right, above and below, and also between the airdates of TNG episodes. So limiting what they can do based on what we see them do isn't really all that worthwhile.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

But you just claimed Neral didn't appear insane?

You compared Neral to Kim Jong Il. I didn't. One does not have to be clinically insane to make an insane decision. If that were the case, then every member of the U.S. government would be clinically insane. Oh, wait a minute...

Sela was the daughter of some Romulan bigwig. Clearly that gave her influence that she normally wouldn't have had, influence that allowed her to have Neral approve her plan, despite its relative idiocy.

Which is exactly why they would prefer to solve it through conflict with outsiders.

What?

 

[BillJ]

Tasha Yar was clearly a descendant of Larry, Moe or Curly and she passed those genes onto Sela.