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Under Bryan Fuller the Discovery was going to disguise itself as a D7?

And in-universe, we can let it slide. There's no particular reason to think the ID was correct: the ship was called both a "battle cruiser" and a "bird of prey" within this particular episode, but apparently was neither, instead being a prison vessel from a House specializing in interrogations, and never really seen battling or preying in any other episode.

That our heroes would get their Klingon ships all wrong is only to be expected when it's been about a century since they last interacted with these folks, that is, fought with them...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Meh, at this point we know the ship in the first season was identified as D-7 only because of miscommunication on the behind the scenes side of things. The ship was intended to be called something else entirely.
Sure, but I also don't mind it in episode either. There's no reason to assume D7 was always that way given the variety of Klingon ships we see.
 
Then again, most things about starships are pointless, this being fiction. (And most things about aircraft would appear pointless to the uninitiated.)

If the writers decided to say "split rings mean science ships", we'd then go along with that. And perhaps the ability to run 300 experiments in parallel is dependent on the ship being split into distinct sections, so that the tardigrade doesn't eat the gelatinous phasers or disrupt the balance of the Klingon Forehead Flattening Forcefield Reflector?

There's no reason to assume D7 was always that way given the variety of Klingon ships we see.

...Indeed, given the variety, D numbers only running to 7 seems implausible.

Unless it's actually Alphabet numbers, which multiples that by 25 or so and creates a comfort zone. But so far we haven't heard of Klingon ships that would be designated by some other letter.

Would the writers have taken inspiration from the way the US Maritime Commission designated its all-important transports in WWII and beyond? A Type C2 would not have been a particular design, but a series of specs that a design would need to meet in order to be classified C2. And, say, with C1 the Commission still bothered with calling the different specific designs C1-A, C1-B and so forth, but apparently this didn't carry beyond those humble beginnings...

Possibly all the D7 designs we have seen meet the same practical specs even though they don't look alike?

Timo Saloniemi
 
How can any of this be true, if there wasn’t a single Klingon ship in season 1 that looked remotely like a TOS D7?

It could work if they used a D4 instead, since that’s what they called the D7 model when it appeared in the ENT episode, “Unexpected.” Of course, there would have to be an explanation as to why Discovery is using the model of a ship that was last seen – to the viewers knowledge – just over 100 years ago. Some long lost ship, maybe?

It would be far easier to explain that L’Rell was nostalgic about the D4 when designing the D7.
 
To be accurate, there never was any "D4" on screen or in dialogue in ENT. D4 is reputedly what the ship in "Unexpected" might have been called had the custom-built model been used here. Instead, they used a generic K't'inga and never called it anything in particular.

The designation D4 instead got used on screen in ST:Into Darkness, where it applied to smallish patrol ships that harassed Kirk's landing party.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The D4 in STID is not the same as the concept D4 that was supposed to be in “Unexpected” and ended up being a CGI reuse of the K’t’inga model for Vorok’s battle cruiser instead.

The only thing they have in common is that they are armed with torpedo launchers only:

Vorok’s Battle Cruiser (2150s) – Forwards and aft photon torpedoes, tractor beam (prime universe)

D4 class (2259) – 2 torpedoes launchers; patrol ship (Kelvinverse)

I mean if the Kelvinverse ship canonically exists in DSC too, then shouldn’t there be Klingons wearing full faced armor helmets as well?

Anyways.... back to the K't'inga/D7 model debate.

Prime Universe Klingon vessels (2140s - 2270s)

There’s the D5 in TAS (IKS Klothos) - which was supposed to be present at the Battle of Caleb IV - which is very different from the standard D5 featured in ENT:

D5 class (2140s – 50s) – Warp 6, disruptors, photon torpedoes, shields, dispersive armour; deuterium tanker, batter cruiser (ENT ver)

D5 (2260s) – 2 disruptors, 1 torpedo launcher, magnetic pulse generator, phaser emitters; battle cruiser & scoutship (TAS ver; IKS Klothos retconned to be a D7)

Then we have the classic D7, which it turns out was introduced a decade before TOS and was present up to DS9, which should not be confused with L'Rell's D7 prison ship:

L'Rell's D7 (2256) - battle cruiser & prison ship

D7 (2257-2370s)
– Warp 9+, 2 disruptors, 1 torpedo launcher, magnetic pulse generator, phaser emitters; battle cruiser & scoutship

And finally, we have the K’t’inga, which was introduced in TMP and was outdated by the time of VOY:

K’t’inga Battle Cruiser (2270-2370s) – Warp 5, disruptor cannons, phasers, fore/aft torpedoes, concussive charge launchers, shields and cloak; battle cruiser

So, maybe the Klingons like recycling this particular design. Of course, maybe there is a difference between a D4 cruiser and a D4 BoP. Or a D5 tanker and a D5 cruiser.

Also, interesting trivia – the K’t’inga was originally supposed to be green. Though maybe that could be retconned as the missing D6 Battle Cruiser.
 
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Kor might have commanded any number of ships named Klothos, to be sure... Although the old fool was quite senile already when ranting about that command, and might not have been able to tell a D5 from a WD40 any longer.

With D4, D5 and D7, we can easily argue these are categories of size and capacity - the three are distinct, while the multiple things falling under D7 are similar enough.

D12, the final canon addition, is also distinct. The problem there is that it appears to be a common Bird of Prey from a common size range for ships shaped like Bird of Prey - and yet Worf thinks it useful to define it as D12 specifically, for the purposes of establishing that it has a specific weakness. Although we can equally well read it as him saying that this specific design falls in the general D12 category, too.

"It is a Class D12 Bird of Prey. They were retired from service because of defective plasma coils."

So either "Unlike D11 and D13 Birds of Prey, these have defective plasma coils" - or then "What can I tell? She's Class D12. She's a Bird of Prey. And, uh, she's also of the specific model that had defective plasma coils, unlike every other D12 model out there, which are all fine pieces of imperial engineering, I'm proud to say."

The only "issue" there would then be that D4 < D5 < D7 in terms of size and apparent capacity, but suddenly D12 < D5...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Perhaps this may be why K’t’inga, Vor’cha, and Negh’Var were adopted for naming Klingon ship classes post-TOS, to help distinguish them. Which would suggest that the Klingons may have moved away from the D4, D5, D7 & D12 classifications, which may have been in fact related to ship size as stated.

Case in point, the smaller B’rel class is a scout BoP that carries a crew of 6-12 and known to exist by the 2360s, while the larger K’vort class is a cruiser BoP that allegedly carries a crew of 1500 and known to exist by the 2370s. While the D12 was just a BoP that happened to be in service between the 2280s and 2350, and had a defective plasma coil.

The DSC era Klingon ships all seem to be unique in design – the Sarcophagus (T’Kuvma’s ship), the cleave ship (called Na’Qjej-class), the Chargh class battle cruiser, the Qugh class destroyer, and the M’Chla BoP – which is reflective of how diverse the Klingons look in appearance as well. And outside of L'Rell's ship, they don't seem to have any designations related to D4, D5, D12, etc. Or maybe they just weren't mentioned, IDK.

And I think that D4 concept for ENT was reused as a Klingon Warbird for the Kelvin movies, upon further review.
 
Which was exactly what I posted in the second link. Did you not click on it?

No, and I also forgot my roman numerals. Your use of the word "completely" made me think we were still on the D4 versus D4 issue up-thread. Also, the fact that Eaves did base the KM ship on his rejected ENT design.
IMG_9342.JPG
 
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Also, the fact that Eaves did base the KM ship on his rejected ENT design.
View attachment 14848

Well, the finished product still looks nothing like the D4. Which is ironic, since this is one case of Eaves recycling his old designs from unrelated shows, video games, etc. (he tends to do this a lot) where the end result is completely different from the concept art.
 
No, and I also forgot my roman numerals. Your use of the word "completely" made me think we were still on the D4 versus D4 issue up-thread. Also, the fact that Eaves did base the KM ship on his rejected ENT design.
View attachment 14848

Well, the finished product still looks nothing like the D4. Which is ironic, since this is one case of Eaves recycling his old designs from unrelated shows, video games, etc. (he tends to do this a lot) where the end result is completely different from the concept art.
Eaves submitted the D4 again for ST'09, and again it was rejected. The Eaglemoss magazine accompanying the model goes into detail.
 
Well, the finished product still looks nothing like the D4. Which is ironic, since this is one case of Eaves recycling his old designs from unrelated shows, video games, etc. (he tends to do this a lot) where the end result is completely different from the concept art.

Designs can be recycled and altered if necessary.

Isn’t the Crossfield-class that Discovery is based on just a recycled version of the Enterprise Phase II model?
 
...The Planet of Titans (tele-)movie project study model.

And while I'm nitpicking:

Perhaps this may be why K’t’inga, Vor’cha, and Negh’Var were adopted for naming Klingon ship classes post-TOS, to help distinguish them.

...That is, Starfleet adopted those because for the first time in its history, it actually had authentic knowledge of such names, perhaps?

A bit like how the Soviet Navy had a "Kara class" in NATO communications, even though there was no ship named Kara in the Soviet fleet; NATO had pulled that designation out of its ass, applying a vaguely pseudo-Russian name beginning with K for Cruiser.

Although it wouldn't have helped had NATO known that the class ship was named Nikolayev, because this wasn't "Nikolayev Class", either. Soviets didn't use class names like that: the cruisers (which weren't even cruisers, but Large ASW Ships) were of the Berkut B type instead.

So quite possibly Starfleet of the 24th century would know that the first of the big ships they encountered in 2361 was named Vor'cha (because Commodore Enwright had been at the launch and gotten the honorary keg of bloodwine), and would call the type accordingly - while Starfleet of the 23rd century would have no way of knowing that the first of the battle cruisers that plagued it from 2271 on had been named K't'inga (as the agents sent to spy on the project were all gruesomely executed after, during or before the interrogations), but would learn this later and retroactively would stop calling the type D7c or whatever.

Which leaves open the question of where the D designations originated. We hear Klingons discuss the D5 with Klingons in DS9 "Once More Unto the Breach", but that's after the Universal Translator has been listening to such tall tales for two centuries straight. We also hear Klingons introduce the apparently all-new D7 to Klingons in DSC "Point of Light", which is before the Federation UT has enjoyed much access to Klingon dealings - but after the date in "Choose Your Pain" where Starfleet was first heard using the D7 designation. And we hear of T'Pol identifying the D5 battle cruiser in ENT "Judgment", at which point the Vulcans are already intimately familiar with the Klingons, but also with humans whose quaint practices T'Pol is often heard accommodating.

So are the D designations indigenous Klingon ones? Or actually Vulcan ones, retroactively applied to Klingon discussions via the UT in our TV sets? Or a human invention, likewise retrofitted? We really can't tell.

Case in point, the smaller B’rel class is a scout BoP that carries a crew of 6-12 and known to exist by the 2360s, while the larger K’vort class is a cruiser BoP that allegedly carries a crew of 1500 and known to exist by the 2370s.

The only time we hear the name B'Rel is in "Rascals", where it applies to the gigantic ships that defeat the E-D hands down. These are reused VFX from the War Timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise" where the folks of that other timeline called them the K'Vort class.

This leaves us free to invent names for both the scout with a dozen crew from ST3:TSfS, and for the bigger Rotarran-style ship from DS9. That is, we can call them anything but "the B'Rel class" because that name is already taken!

The DSC era Klingon ships all seem to be unique in design – the Sarcophagus (T’Kuvma’s ship), the cleave ship (called Na’Qjej-class), the Chargh class battle cruiser, the Qugh class destroyer, and the M’Chla BoP – which is reflective of how diverse the Klingons look in appearance as well.

Which is a storytelling point of sorts, too: the Klingons are disunited. We may even assume they never bothered to send actual warships to T'Kumva's silly Kahless Konvention, but appeared in their private yachts or trading vessels or whatnot instead. Save for Kol, whose bellicose stance is well established (even if he doesn't want to share in T'Kumva's war), and whose victorious fleet later is shown to feature the same Qughs that were present at the Binaries. Although of course everybody flies the BoP of the day in addition.

And outside of L'Rell's ship, they don't seem to have any designations related to D4, D5, D12, etc. Or maybe they just weren't mentioned, IDK.

Certainly there was a total failure to mention any on screen, yes.

But in-universe, it would be pretty easy to claim that L'Rell's cool prison ship was a typical example of the craft of the House of Mo'Kai, and emitted a false signature that made Federation computers variously mistake her for a D7 battle cruiser or a bird of prey. Or for a harmless freighter for that matter. :devil:

And I think that D4 concept for ENT was reused as a Klingon Warbird for the Kelvin movies, upon further review.

The artist himself seems to argue this is the case, yes, even if the design evolved a bit in between. That is, Jaeger at the Memory Alpha page is said to have "followed the lines" of the Eaves original. And obviously the girderwork was lost but the extra guns and the "forward-leaning" stance of the bow and the engines retained.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Designs can be recycled and altered if necessary.

Isn’t the Crossfield-class that Discovery is based on just a recycled version of the Enterprise Phase II model?

It was a conscious choice for the DSC producers to recycle and update the Planet of the Titans design for their hero ship. It’s another thing entirely to be hired to specifically design new ships for a certain era and then just dust off old designs made for a completely different era and submit them. That’s not what you’re getting paid for.
 
I really don't see any difference there, other than the first case meaning ripping off some other guy and the second meaning relying on your own creations.

Dusting off is what happens in and to art. And "a certain era" is something that is generated in the process, not something that would preexist in the examples given.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Here’s the difference, IMHO: the DSC producers didn’t take concept art of the Enterprise-E from First Contact, made minor modifications to the design, and then unveiled it as a ship built ten years before TOS. They chose a design that was intended to be utilized during more or less the same era that their own show was taking place in.

And there is a pre-existing precedent for design attributes for that particular era: the TOS Enterprise and other TOS-styled designs from TAS.
 
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