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Ukraine Trek

Death Ray

Commander
Red Shirt
I often view world circumstances through stories and lessons gleaned from Star Trek, as I’m sure many of you do as well.

Let’s imagine the Ukraine War in Star Trek terms. What episodes does the conflict resemble? Which players resemble which Star Trek counterparts? (Is the US the Federation, or the Romulans? Is Ukraine more like the Bajorans, or are they a Maquis caught between the Federation and the Cardassians?)

More importantly, can we imagine a resolution that would fit in with Federation principles? Do we need a painful “Prime Directive” solution, or do we have to retake Chin’toka, no matter what?

Can’t wait to read your ideas!
 
I don't know that there's an exact Star Trek parallel, but I think the closest would have been if the Cardassian Union had decided to invade and occupy Bajor after its attempts to install a puppet government via the Circle coup failed.
 
The UN is more the equivalent of the Federation. Even at that, the analogy is restricted because in real life various Western countries are supporting Ukraine but, in Star Trek, the Prime Directive prohibited the Federation from supporting Bajor.

Plus, the Federation is a unified governing agency with power, authority, and a militarized agency. The UN is the exact opposite.

But, yeah, Cardassian invasion of Bajor is my first thought.
 
The problem is that an actor state of aggression is also part of the UN, which would put the actor state of aggression along the lines of an infiltrative member of the Federation, something along the lines of the Romulan Empire. Star Trek: Picard deals with covert influences being placed on the UFP by the Romulans while some Romulans remained part of the UFP.
 
The UN has always been a bit of a dicey comparison to the Federation, since it does not represent a government over its member states. However, it may be the best comparison we have since it represents cooperation between nations as the UFP represents cooperation between species.

Perhaps the best comparison would be be that Ukraine is Romulus in the future from All Good Things, with the Federation and the Klingons back at each others' throats after a long detente.
 
When a state wants to join the UN, the only actual barrier to joining seems to be when other states don't recognize the candidate as a state in the first place. Even North Korea is a UN member. So whatever the uniting ground of the UN is, it isn't necessarily a core ideology.

So any parallel in Star Trek probably would be more like to a galactic council of all parties, regardless of their mutual relations, to at least try to sometimes arrive at peaceful solutions, but failing as often as succeeding. Perhaps the Planet of Galactic Peace Nimbus 3 would be a manifestation in the Trek universe of the same kind of idea that gave rise to the UN.
 
I often view world circumstances through stories and lessons gleaned from Star Trek, as I’m sure many of you do as well.

Let’s imagine the Ukraine War in Star Trek terms. What episodes does the conflict resemble? Which players resemble which Star Trek counterparts? (Is the US the Federation, or the Romulans? Is Ukraine more like the Bajorans, or are they a Maquis caught between the Federation and the Cardassians?)

More importantly, can we imagine a resolution that would fit in with Federation principles? Do we need a painful “Prime Directive” solution, or do we have to retake Chin’toka, no matter what?

Can’t wait to read your ideas!

This is such a beautiful post! Excellent! And so important! Thank you.

I'm thinking, as everyone has already said, Cardassia-Bajor. Except, it's not.

There's nothing in mainstream Trek history to suggest that Cardassia went through the tumultuous times that Soviet Russia did in the twentieth century. It's just a military society not much different from the Klingons. Except...guilt. Dukat, in his ambition and his sorrow, personifies this.

But Russia-Ukraine-US does NOT equal Cardassia-Bajor-Federation.

Since you already mentioned it, the Maquis are obviously important. Throwing the equation out of balance. It's the perfect vision of resistance. Which Sisko kills. Yet. Like a ghost, Kira Nerys.

Really, one of the most important and complicated characters in ST history.

Is Ukraine Bajor? No.

Bajor is Iraq.

And the war, unfortunately, is only starting. :(
 
There's nothing in mainstream Trek history to suggest that Cardassia went through the tumultuous times that Soviet Russia

Au contraire! Didn't we learn in Chain of Command that Cardassia had once been a proud society brought to ruin before the military took over? Could be a post-Cold War situation!
 
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Au contraire! Didn't we learn fin Chain of Command that Cardassia had once been a proud society brought to ruin before the military took over? Could be a post-Cold War situation!

No. Explain yourself? (I'm Indian, with a deep interest in ST and politics in general.)

I don't think the cold war has ended. It's simply changed forms.
 
No. Explain yourself? (I'm Indian, with a deep interest in ST and politics in general.)

I don't think the cold war has ended. It's simply changed forms.

In the TNG two-parter Chain of Command, Picard is interrogated by the Cardassian Gul Madred, and Picard reveals (to us) that the Cardassians were once more like the Bajorans, very spiritual, until some catastrophe led to their society's collapse.
 
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Gul Madred.

In "Chain Of Command, Part II", Madred said disease was rampant and poverty was everywhere. He himself was among the poor, telling Picard a story about his childhood. The military took over and they acquired territories and resources during the war and he said, "Because of that, my daughter will never go hungry."
 
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Look. There. Are. Four. Lights!

Any idiot would melt at that sentence. Picard's anguish is one of the best ST moments. Perhaps even more so than when Kirk, with a sorrow and a gulp in his throat, says Spock was the most human after all.

If the question is to be respected at all, which I do,: cold war.

The entire question began with Russia-Ukraine. Remember your history.

Why Ukraine?
 
I don't think the cold war has ended. It's simply changed forms.

How so?

Look. There. Are. Four. Lights!

Any idiot would melt at that sentence. Picard's anguish is one of the best ST moments. Perhaps even more so than when Kirk, with a sorrow and a gulp in his throat, says Spock was the most human after all.

We all agree that "Chain of Command, Parts I & II" are excellent episodes. But that has nothing to do with @Farscape One 's question.

If the question is to be respected at all, which I do,: cold war.

The entire question began with Russia-Ukraine. Remember your history.

Why Ukraine?

Dude, just answer the question. You were asked to support your contention that the Cold War never ended, merely changed forms.

I for one would argue that it did end, and that the current U.S.-Russian Cold War is actually a distinct conflict from the U.S.-Soviet Cold War. The U.S.-Soviet Cold War was a competition between apartheid pseudo-democratic capitalism on the U.S.'s side and authoritarian pseudo-collectivist communism on the USSR's side. The current U.S.-Russian Cold War, by contrast, is a conflict between two different versions of capitalism -- the U.S. still embodies an apartheid pseudo-democratic capitalism, but the Russian Federation has embraced full-on authoritarian oligarchical fascism (which is of course the logical endpoint of capitalism) and irredentist Russian nationalism & colonialism. So the driving engines of these two Cold Wars are very different. Indeed, if the fascist movement in the United States succeeds in seizing state power, it is highly probable that the U.S. will abandon Ukraine and the U.S.-Russian Cold War will end, since both Trump and Putin will agree to let the other indulge in whatever forms of fascism and colonialist aggression they want within their respective "spheres of influence" at least for a time.
 
I'm thinking, as everyone has already said, Cardassia-Bajor. Except, it's not.

Well, it's not insofar as Cardassia never re-invaded Bajor after having previously recognized Bajor's independence the way Russia has re-invaded Ukraine after having previously recognized Ukraine's independence. But with both Cardassia/Bajor and Russia/Ukraine, you have a clear example of a regional hegemon and a colonized nation victimized by the hegemon.

There's nothing in mainstream Trek history to suggest that Cardassia went through the tumultuous times that Soviet Russia did in the twentieth century.

As others have said, this is false.

It's just a military society not much different from the Klingons.

... No, the Cardassian Union pre-2372 Detapa Council uprising was profoundly different from the Klingon Empire.

The Klingon Empire is a deeply fractured, feudalist society where the primary form of political organization and loyalty is actually to the various aristocratic Houses rather than to the Empire as a shared political project. The Klingon Defense Force as a unifying, Empire-wide organization loyal to the Imperial government rather than to any particular House seems to be a relatively recent development (no indication it existed during the 2150s (we never see KDF uniforms in ENT), and ships are referred to as being loyal to various Houses rather than to the Empire as late as the 2256-57 UFP/Klingon War, suggesting the KDF may not have even existed as late as the 2250s. Klingon culture is extremely individualistic, and high-level politics is very personality-driven. The Empire was originally organized as a monarchy, and even though the Chancellor has to share power with the High Council, it is very clear that the Chancellor is the individual leader of the Empire. The ruling class prizes ritualized violence, but the Empire does not seem to be much of a surveillance state (they didn't detect proof of House Duras's Romulan alliances for decades, for instance).

By contrast, the Cardassian Union is very different. The state is a highly-developed institution and loyalty to the state is inculcated in Cardassian culture from an early age. Family is extremely important, but the idea of aristocratic Houses as a basis for political organization appears absent from their culture. The state seems to function on a sort of collectivist principle -- not in the Soviet or leftist sense of the means of production being communally owned and managed or in the sense of nominal equality of the classes, but simply in the sense that power seems to be shared by groups of powerful members of the ruling class rather than monopolized by individuals. We never hear of one dictator of Cardassia, or one leader of the Detapa Council, or one leader of the Central Command -- Enabran Tain's status as a singular leader of the Obsidian Order seems to be anomalous given how group-centric other ruling Cardassian institutions are depicted as being. We never really know who's ultimately the leader of the Cardassian Union before Dukat's coup. The government is nominally divided between the Central Command, the Obsidian Order, and the Detapa Council; the Council is virtually powerless over the Central Command in real life, and the Central Command seems to control Cardassian foreign policy and most levers of power, with the Obsidian Order as its only real rival for authority. There is a pervasive surveillance state, with the Obsidian Order maintaining a totalitarian system of control over the population. Cardassian culture is fixated more on a colonialist need to accumulate wealth and resources than on the kinds of highly-individualistic ritualized violence that preoccupy the Klingon ruling class. Overall, Cardassia reads as far more colonist capitalist to me than the Klingons.

But Russia-Ukraine-US does NOT equal Cardassia-Bajor-Federation.

Nobody claimed the parallel is exact. But Cardssia/Bajor does equal Russia/Ukraine in the sense of the former being a regional hegemon that invaded, occupied, colonized, and oppressed the latter until being forced to withdraw.

Since you already mentioned it, the Maquis are obviously important. Throwing the equation out of balance. It's the perfect vision of resistance.

Not really. A conflict between the UFP and a secessionist faction on its border with the Cardassians does not make Cardassia any less of a colonizer to Bajor, nor does the absence of a U.S. civil conflict make Russia any less of a colonizer to Ukraine.

Which Sisko kills.

No, the Jem'Hadar are the ones who finally defeat the Maquis after Dukat brings Cardassia into the Dominion.

Yet. Like a ghost, Kira Nerys.

.... that is not a sentence.

Is Ukraine Bajor? No.

Bajor is Iraq.

I think that very valid arguments could be made comparing Bajor to both Ukraine and Iraq.
 
We all agree that "Chain of Command, Parts I & II" are excellent episodes. But that has nothing to do with @Farscape One 's question.



Dude, just answer the question. You were asked to support your contention that the Cold War never ended, merely changed forms.

I for one would argue that it did end, and that the current U.S.-Russian Cold War is actually a distinct conflict from the U.S.-Soviet Cold War. The U.S.-Soviet Cold War was a competition between apartheid pseudo-democratic capitalism on the U.S.'s side and authoritarian pseudo-collectivist communism on the USSR's side. The current U.S.-Russian Cold War, by contrast, is a conflict between two different versions of capitalism -- the U.S. still embodies an apartheid pseudo-democratic capitalism, but the Russian Federation has embraced full-on authoritarian oligarchical fascism (which is of course the logical endpoint of capitalism) and irredentist Russian nationalism & colonialism. So the driving engines of these two Cold Wars are very different. Indeed, if the fascist movement in the United States succeeds in seizing state power, it is highly probable that the U.S. will abandon Ukraine and the U.S.-Russian Cold War will end, since both Trump and Putin will agree to let the other indulge in whatever forms of fascism and colonialist aggression they want within their respective "spheres of influence" at least for a time.

Wow. You said hegemon. Almost nobody uses that concept anymore. Respect. Thank you (but, with your permission, I disagree)

Of course I'm atavistic/anachronistic. Out of time. Still.

You're quite correct Sci. I didn't answer the question. About the Cold War (which you've already multiplied by saying "two" or "current"). I was too busy providing a historical context for Ukraine-Russia.

Now, what I find interesting about your first post is your conviction that oligarchical fascism is the logical end point of capitalism. How so? Does capitalism have an end point? That's just pseudo-Marxist nonsense.

Ergo, cold war. Writing from this side of the pond, I find US non-intervention deeply unsettling. Plus Putin has already put all of Europe in its place. Forgive me, but I'm gonna go back even further than the Cold War. WW2. Of the so-called Eastern Bloc, the split between China and Russia happened because of their differing "interpretations" of Marxism. (Funny that you and I are still arguing over the same.) Ours is a tripartite world. It's not actually just US and Russia (thus, you're correct about the Cold War. More than you know). And India, indeed, wants to join the game and very soon it will. Believe me. Cold war. Multiplied. In all directions. God be damned. Ethics be damned. And even the UN. Which once I used to believe in.

A collective silence about murder, anywhere, everywhere, must be called out. Whether it's Ukraine, Tibet or Palestine... (Although we're still talking about it. Is that not your point?)

And how does any of this relate to Star Trek?

Picard to Worf (TNG: The Drumhead): "Constant Vigilance"

Way before JK Rowling's Mad Eye Moody.
 
Wow. You said hegemon. Almost nobody uses that concept anymore. Respect. Thank you (but, with your permission, I disagree)

Of course I'm atavistic/anachronistic. Out of time. Still.

You're quite correct Sci. I didn't answer the question. About the Cold War (which you've already multiplied by saying "two" or "current"). I was too busy providing a historical context for Ukraine-Russia.

Now, what I find interesting about your first post is your conviction that oligarchical fascism is the logical end point of capitalism. How so? Does capitalism have an end point? That's just pseudo-Marxist nonsense.

Ergo, cold war. Writing from this side of the pond, I find US non-intervention deeply unsettling. Plus Putin has already put all of Europe in its place. Forgive me, but I'm gonna go back even further than the Cold War. WW2. Of the so-called Eastern Bloc, the split between China and Russia happened because of their differing "interpretations" of Marxism. (Funny that you and I are still arguing over the same.) Ours is a tripartite world. It's not actually just US and Russia (thus, you're correct about the Cold War. More than you know). And India, indeed, wants to join the game and very soon it will. Believe me. Cold war. Multiplied. In all directions. God be damned. Ethics be damned. And even the UN. Which once I used to believe in.

A collective silence about murder, anywhere, everywhere, must be called out. Whether it's Ukraine, Tibet or Palestine... (Although we're still talking about it. Is that not your point?)

And how does any of this relate to Star Trek?

Picard to Worf (TNG: The Drumhead): "Constant Vigilance"

Way before JK Rowling's Mad Eye Moody.

Actually it's not "constant vigilance." That was JK Rowling.

What Picard says is: "Vigilance, Mr. Worf. That is the price we have to continually pay."

Not constant, continual. Far more heartbreaking, far more powerful.
 
Now, what I find interesting about your first post is your conviction that oligarchical fascism is the logical end point of capitalism. How so? Does capitalism have an end point? That's just pseudo-Marxist nonsense.

Okay, I'm going to cut this off right here.

It was always a risk that this thread would lead to real world politics, and lo and behold it has while still on the first page. :lol:

Please feel free to discuss capitalism and Marxism in the appropriate forums (Misc, TNZ).

Thanks
 
Okay, I'm going to cut this off right here.

It was always a risk that this thread would lead to real world politics, and lo and behold it has while still on the first page. :lol:

Please feel free to discuss capitalism and Marxism in the appropriate forums (Misc, TNZ).

Thanks


Thanks. Even I was horrified by my response. I'm with Sci. So, thanks. Every once in a while a Trekkie needs help from other Trekkies.

My apologies.
 
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