UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

[rahullak]

So been wondering...now that the Romulan Star Empire has joined the Typhon pact, the Treaty of Algeron would/should be void right?

Would Starfleet use this as an excuse to equip their ships with cloaking devices, especially given the shift in the balance of power in the quadrant?
Would the Romulan Neutral Zone have to be re-drawn?

Would the Romulans share technology with their new allies?

Speculations? Comments?

(Mods: Is this thread bordering on being too speculative for writers to read?)

 

[8of5]

Well, Resistance already noted the Federation were considering their options on cloaking technology in light of the weakened Romulan state. And didn't a singular Destiny already show other Pact members using cloaking technology?

 

[LightningStorm]

(Mods: Is this thread bordering on being too speculative for writers to read?)

It's a fine line, I think we're good for now, long as everyone keeps that in the back of their minds should be fine.

As to the topic:

One thing to consider though is that the Imperial Romulan State is an ally of the Federation so said treaty may have an important part in the Typhon Pact story line.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So been wondering...now that the Romulan Star Empire has joined the Typhon pact, the Treaty of Algeron would/should be void right?

Yes, IMHO, it should be.

 

[LutherSloan]

Well, we've already seen the Typhon Pact allies of Romulus possessing cloaking technology that they did not previously have at the end of A Singular Destiny. We also find out that the more advanced Breen weaponry were given to some of the other members as well.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, we've already seen the Typhon Pact allies of Romulus possessing cloaking technology that they did not previously have at the end of A Singular Destiny. We also find out that the more advanced Breen weaponry were given to some of the other members as well.

Excellent point. If the Romulan Empire shares cloaking technology with anyone, it can be argued that Algeron is null and void now anyway.

 

[rahullak]

Yes, good points... so this would also mean that the Neutral Zone will have to be redrawn or would again be a potential flashpoint.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yes, good points... so this would also mean that the Neutral Zone will have to be redrawn

No, that's a separate business. The Treaty of Algeron was not the treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War. A lot of fans assumed it was, but TNG's "The Pegasus" put the lie to that.

 

[rahullak]

^
Oh I see. I assumed too.

 

[Sci]

The fact that the Romulan Star Empire joined the Typhon Pact does not necessarily mean that the Treaty of Algeron is nullified. After all, the fact that the United States joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization did not affect its obligations under the Treaty of San Francisco.

On the other hand, if the Treaty of Algeron banned the Romulan Star Empire from spreading cloaking technology, yet it has done so to its Typhon Pact partners, this likely nullifies the Treaty -- or, at least, means that neither party should feel obligated to enforce it anymore.

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that the Treaty did not contain any provisions banning the RSE from sharing cloaking technology -- The Lost Era: Serpents Among the Ruins establishes it to have been the treaty that ended the ever-escalating tensions between the UFP and RSE in the wake of the Khitomer Accords following the Tomed Incident, and that the Federation-won't-cloak provisions were foisted upon the UFP as part of the Treaty. In which case, the Treaty is still in force and the Federation will have to continue relying upon its legally-cloaking allies for missions requiring a cloak. The UFP will have an advantage insofar as the Imperial Romulan State adds a new cloak-capable partner to the Khitomer Accords Alliance.

 

[rahullak]

^
A valid argument.

I suppose a lot depends on how the Typhon Pact is setup. If it is indeed like NATO (which is a military alliance ala that between UFP and Klingons) with the individual powers retaining their political individuality in terms of their foreign policy, then I suppose the treaty would have to be honored. If however, the Pact is like the UFP (ie. single political entity with a single foreign policy), then any treaty made by formerly independent members with neighbors wouldn't carry much weight and I think likely to be discarded. ( an analogy would be if California had had a treaty with Russia, it would have been voided once California had become part of the US)

I doubt if any treaty the vulcans or andorians had with the romulans and klingons continued after they created and joined the alliance that would become the UFP.

 

[Sci]

^
A valid argument.

I suppose a lot depends on how the Typhon Pact is setup. If it is indeed like NATO (which is a military alliance ala that between UFP and Klingons) with the individual powers retaining their political individuality in terms of their foreign policy, then I suppose the treaty would have to be honored. If however, the Pact is like the UFP (ie. single political entity with a single foreign policy), then any treaty made by formerly independent members with neighbors wouldn't carry much weight and I think likely to be discarded.

Well, A Singular Destiny seemed to make it clear that the Typhon Pact is more of a very close-knit alliance than a sovereign state like the Federation. I'd say the closest equivalent would be the European Union, actually -- delegated sovereignty in some areas, divergent in others.

But.... Even if the Typhon Pact were a sovereign state, that does not mean that the treaties that its members made would be rendered invalid. In real life, international law holds that successor states are still party to treaties made by their predecessor states. Thus, for instance, the Russian Federation is still party to the treaties on nuclear reduction signed by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Or, for an older example, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and United States of America under the U.S. Constitution in 1801 were still party to the 1783 Treaty of Paris between the Kingdom of Great Britain and the United States of America under the Articles of Confederation.

( an analogy would be if California had had a treaty with Russia, it would have been voided once California had become part of the US)

Actually, the United States would probably have been forced to assume California's obligations under the treaty. (Of course, bear in mind that the legality of the so-called California Republic's independence from Mexico is questionable, since it was proclaimed by European-descended Americans who had moved into the Mexican territory of California in order to capture it for the U.S. from Mexico.)

I doubt if any treaty the vulcans or andorians had with the romulans and klingons continued after they created and joined the alliance that would become the UFP.

Well, we do know of at least one treaty between the Federation and one of its Member States that was continued with the UFP as party after the first Federation Day: The treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War. It established the Neutral Zone and provided that breach of the Neutral Zone by either party, the Romulan Star Empire or United Earth, would constitute a declaration of war. The Federation is established to have become party to that treaty in "Balance of Terror," even though it did not even legally exist when the war ended and the Neutral Zone was established.

More than likely, the UFP continued the Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, Alpha Centauri, and United Earth obligations of any treaties they made prior to the signing of the Articles of the Federation.

 

[rahullak]

^

Hmm...but i guess it would be treaty specific too. I mean if we had states that had technology-sharing treaties or right-of-passage treaties (in general anything that affected security), these would obviously have to be revised or annulled since the new larger entity has a different political orientation. (imagine an erstwhile independent entity that had a right-of-passage treaty with the romulans, and then subsequently joined the Federation...obviously such a treaty would become meaningless in the new order)

I think the UFP & the Romulans continued the treaty establishing the Neutral Zone because it was in both their interests to do so.

The Treaty of Algeron (is it possible to get the text of this treaty?) and the use of the cloaking device... it is in the interests of the UFP to have that treaty annulled and so they could claim breach of treaty by the RSE since they've joined the Pact. To further complicate matters the Romulans are no longer a single entity: RSE and IRS...another point in the favor of the UFP.

Since there really is no galactic law or law enforcer, its only political leverage ( tolerance for escalation, diplomatic wrangling) that would probably determine the outcome of treaty disputes in any case. If the parties really wanted to go to war, they wouldn't need a reason (such as breach of treaty)...or could cook one up willy-nilly.

 

[Paris]

I assume the Typhon Pact novels will at least touch on the topic of cloaking devices and their status in the post-Destiny landscape of the UFP. We know that the Federation has cloaking tech. According to JM Dillard's Resistance, each ship's computer is equiped with the spec's to make one with available components, and with permission from an Admiral. Since we don't know the exact wording of the Treaty of Algeron, it's impossible to say whether the treaty is now null and void. With the IRS being an official ally now, it gets even trickier.

Even if it is deemed that Federation ships can have cloaks, I would still prefer they don't use them very often. Talk about a deus ex machina . The Federation is about exploring out in the open. Not hiding in the shadows. The group within the Federation/Starfleet that could really benefit from cloaking tech is Section 31, but as they are already super secretive and "underground", it's safe to assume they already use some form of cloak. According to DS9, they have their own ships, and they need some way of hiding them during their operations. As a clandestine group who do whatever is neccesary to secure the Federation, it would be ludacris for them to not use cloaking tech.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I assume the Typhon Pact novels will at least touch on the topic of cloaking devices and their status in the post-Destiny landscape of the UFP. We know that the Federation has cloaking tech. According to JM Dillard's Resistance, each ship's computer is equiped with the spec's to make one with available components, and with permission from an Admiral. Since we don't know the exact wording of the Treaty of Algeron, it's impossible to say whether the treaty is now null and void. With the IRS being an official ally now, it gets even trickier.

Even if it is deemed that Federation ships can have cloaks, I would still prefer they don't use them very often. Talk about a deus ex machina . The Federation is about exploring out in the open. Not hiding in the shadows. The group within the Federation/Starfleet that could really benefit from cloaking tech is Section 31, but as they are already super secretive and "underground", it's safe to assume they already use some form of cloak. According to DS9, they have their own ships, and they need some way of hiding them during their operations. As a clandestine group who do whatever is neccesary to secure the Federation, it would be ludacris for them to not use cloaking tech.

According to "Abyss" they do , and your arguments make perfect sense to me, including the idea that we shouldn't see too much Federation cloaking.

 

[rahullak]

^

Well yes, the UFP is all about exploring in the open.... but its nice to know that the option exists to "hide in the shadows" to protect the ship and its crew and use this advantage in times of conflict. The Romulans can't always be relied upon to give their tacit approval for the use of cloaks if the UFP were to have a conflict with another group.

 

[ToddCam]

But if the Star Empire is in abrogation of the treaty, doesn't that make it void?

 

[rahullak]

^
I'm assuming it is. It would really help if someone could get their hands on the text of the Treaty, assuming of course it has been written.

 

[Paris]

^Maybe someone will write it, or at least some passages from it, in one of the Typhon Pact books

 

[Sci]

But if the Star Empire is in abrogation of the treaty, doesn't that make it void?

As I understand it, treaties can only be voided if both sides abrogate (that is, repeal) them legally, because they assume the status of domestic law once they have been ratified.

Thus, even if the Romulan Star Empire repealed the Treaty of Algeron, it would still be binding upon the Federation, just like any piece of domestic Federation law, until the Federation repealed it.

Personally, I think it would be irrational for the Federation not to repeal the Treaty in the post-Typhon Pact landscape; the RSE is in no position to attack the Federation unilaterally (which was the original reason the Federation agreed to ban cloaks in the Treaty: to reduce tensions with the Romulans, as established in The Lost Era: Serpents Among the Ruins), and the rest of the Pact does not have a Treaty with the Federation banning the cloaking device. Meanwhile, the Federation is allied with the Imperial Romulan State, which opens up new avenues of trade and scientific exchange for developing new cloaking technologies -- and they aren't likely to attack the UFP for developing cloaking technologies.

Meanwhile, the very existence of the Pact means that Starfleet Intelligence is going to need to step up its espionage missions, and Starfleet is going to need to be able to keep up with its cloak-capable Khitomer Accord partners (especially if the other Khitomer members, like the Cardassians and Ferengi, decide they want cloaks, too). It would be irrational for the Federation not to repeal the Treaty of Algeron and allow Starfleet Intelligence to operate a fleet of cloak-capable ships for use in reconnaissance and espionage missions, particularly agent insertions and extractions.