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U.S.S. TITAN -- THE WINNER!

Posted by Marco Palmieri:
Posted by Captain X:
Oh, I see, so even if we don't like something we shouldn't say something because it isn't our work. :rolleyes: Sorry, I thought the entire point of something like this was for feedback, which also means people saying they don't like it, and hopefully being more effective by going into detailed analysis as to why they don't like it.

For the record, those of us who work on the fiction--and that includes the Titan Contest--consider thoughtfully expressed criticism a welcome part of making ourselves accessible in this fashion, and are happy to engage in such discussions. :)
I know, and I try to give effective feedback on something like this, but I get kinda mad when someone has to come along and say something to the effect that I should just STFU because it isn't my design.
 
^^Well, first of all, a lot of starships have violated the impulse-engine placement rules you describe, so we have to assume there's something more than Newtonian thrust at work.
There's actually an argument in favor of that, but it's one that was disregarded/countered by the TNG-and-post Trek canon. Remember that in Star Trek, the Romulan interstellar craft were supposedly "impulse-only." Remember that the Enterprise made it from the barrier to Delta Vega without warp drive. It was always implied that impulse was actually capable of faster-than-light propulsion. In "The Cage," Jose... whatever his name was, the navigator... told the illusory rescuees that "You won't believe how fast you can get back! The time barrier has been broken, why our new ships...." All these together sort of implied that impulse was a relatively slow, but definitely supra-light-capable, propulsion system.
Second, the TNG Tech Manual made it pretty clear that impulse engines actually use a subwarp spatial distortion as their mechanism of propulsion, because there's no way any mere rocket thrust could give something as massive as a Starfleet heavy cruiser the kinds of accelerations we've seen.
Not true. Here's what it actually says. From page 75...
During the early definition phase of the Ambassador class, it was determined that the combined vehicle mass of the prototype NX-10521 could reach at least 3.71 million metric tons. The propulsive force availble from the highest specific-impulse (I-sub-sp) fusion engines available or projected fell far short of being able to achieve the 10 km/sec^2 acceleration required. This necessitated the inclusion of a compact space-time driver coil, similar to those standard in warp engine nacelles, that would perform a low-level continuum distortion without driving the vehcile across the warp threshold. The driver coil was already into computer simulation trials during the Ambassador class engineering phase and it was determined that a fusion-driven engine could move a larger mass than would normally be possible by reaction thrust alone, even with exhaust product accellerated to near lightspeed.

Experimental results with exhaust products temporarily accelerated beyond lightspeed yielded disappointing results, due to the lack of return force coupling to the engine frame. The work in this area is continuing, however, in an attempt to increase powerplant performance for future starship types.
And from page 76,
The main impulse engine (MIE) is located on Deck 23 and thrusts along the centerline of the docked spacecraft. During separated flight, the engine thrust vectors are adjusted slightly in the +Y direction; that is, pointed slightly up from center to allow for proper center-of-mass motions (See: 6.3). The Saucer Module impulse engines are located on Deck 10 of the vehicle XZ plane and thrust parallel to the vehicle centerline.
So, it's established that impulse engines are Newtonian, and that the FIRST TIME that "impulse engines" used anything other than convention Newtonian thrust was with the Ambassador development project, and the use of the added driver coil was to super-accelerate the exhaust products to superluminal velocities.

You could argue that changes have occurred between the time of this writing (in the fiction, I mean) and the launch of Titan, or that it uses something new and different from classical impulse. (And "impulse" is BY DEFINITION A NEWTONIAN TERM, by the way, used to describe any "equal and opposite reaction") A new propulsion system could exist... after all, this was supposedly written at the time of the launch of Enterprise D, a bit more than a decade earlier).
(By comparison, it takes an oil tanker something like hours to slow to a stop, and it's travelling at an infinitesimal fraction of starship speeds.)
Yes, but you're comparing a diesel engine to what is essentially a directed hydrogen bomb. The thrust output of an oil tanker is not based upon needing to accelerate fast. By comparison, an aircraft carrier, which is at least as massive, can accelerate many times faster. And in those cases, we're talking about dealing with very small power reserves compared to what you get from a fusion reactor (even the fission-based nuclear carriers we currently have are designed for energy efficiency, not for high performance in the turns!)

Fusion propulsion is the most reasonable, practical interstellar propulsion system on the boards today. And if you can come up with a way of safely directing the output of a fusion reaction, you can get some pretty impressive energy output, purely directed to Newtonian thrust.
So it stands to reason that distortion could be altered to vector the resultant thrust in ways unavailable to a rocket thruster.
While a new system might be possible, one of the key elements in any design is what we like to call "the KISS principle." KISS stands for "keep it simple, stupid!" Or, tranlated into "Scotty-ese," you could say "The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

Basically, we have a very clear understanding of the laws of Newtonian physics. We don't know for a fact that supraluminal propulsion isn't possible, based upon some element of physics we don't know yet. ALL REAL PHYSICAL OBJECTS obey the newtonian laws, and while it might in theory be possible to circumvent those laws, it's hard to imagine WHY you would circumvent them if it wasn't necessary.

Yes, a few Trek ships have violated this, but not by any means have MOST of them done so. Only a few have been really eggregious about flaunting the known laws of physics.

So, while it IS only fiction, and it can be done "anyway that looks cool," if it's possible to make be closer to reality, WITHOUT DAMAGING THE "COOLNESS FACTOR," why would you not want to do that? We're talking a VERY minor tweak to the design, and it will work with both "as yet undiscovered" physical laws and "already well-understood" physical laws. The ship will look almost identical with those minor tweaks, after all, and technical people (like me but also like all the many scientists, engineers, advanced students, etc) who are fans will not be "jarred" out of enjoying the entertainment by seeing stuff that just screams out "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE." That's why I can't make myself watch Armageddon all the way through without yelling at the screen... good storyline, fun characters, LIV TYLER... a lot of nice stuff there... but seeing the Russian station in that movie puts most technical types into appoplexy!
 
Sean, I AM NOT RIPPING YOUR DESIGN. Sheesh, pal... I made a suggestion regarding fixing the impulse engine placement over here. And I have not "ripped" it over there, either. Show me a quote where I "ripped you" or where I "ripped your design."

I am not "upset." And I'm not "writing a book saying that mine is better."

I've written, there, about how I was hoping for a more "classic trek" design ethic, because I was hoping that this series would pick up the "classic trek" legacy. While I said that I prefer the "classic" design ethic, that I would have liked a choice that followed that, and that I'm disppointed that they chose a design so clearly "New Trek" rather than "classic Trek", I have never "slammed" your design in any way.

And here, I wrote a note making a couple of suggestions about how to make your design, with almost trivial fixes, into a PRACTICAL design (fyi, just some talk about relocation of impulse exhausts to make it work with well-understood Newtonian principles).

NEITHER ONE "RIPS" ON YOU OR YOUR DESIGN. I've seen people post that they actually don't like yours... I think it fits well into the Star Trek milleu, I just wanted to see a different approach, that's all.

I write very fast. I can type a note like this one in a matter of a couple of minutes. So it's not a big deal for me to write "a book." You don't have to read it if you'd prefer not, but I don't mind writing.

I don't understand why people seem to expect nothing but positive reactions and can't deal with anything less than 100% positive reactions. It's not a personal attack, or an attack on your design.
 
Posted by Titan Designer:



...I understand that you are upset...

<snip>

Sean


Two power claps for Sean! You held out much longer than I would have.

I am dismayed to see how this this thread (and its counterparts on SS and ST Books) has been comandeered by the "my ideas are better" contingency.

I spend all day teaching 13 and 14 year olds and they are more graceful congratulating winners even when they're disappointed by the results.

Marco titled the thread "USS Titan - The Winner" not "USS Titan - Open Season on the Winner"

Let Sean have his moment! It's not about you this time.
 
Obviously I don't expect 100% positive remarks. That is impossible. I have taken people's coments in stride. I have even fixed a few things on the design that Marco and I have pointed out. So I have taken the coments. They will be posted, when they update the site.

So what, am I suppose to totally Re-design the whole ship to fit your needs.
No. If Simon & Schuster ask me to change some thing or add something I have. I answer to them and I answer to the the the guide lines that were set forth in the contest.


Oh well I don't want to piss anyone off I, I respect your opion, and you can hopefully respect that we disagree on a few things. No Rip on your engineering back ground. I have alway watched trek as a fan not a person saying "Hay that break a few laws of physics".

I am not an engineer so I don't know the ups and downs of that industry.

I just enjoy reading and watching the adventures that take place in this
Universe.

Truce? :vulcan:
 
Copied from the S&S board verbatim...

Sean,

Obviously I don't expect 100% positive remarks. That is impossible. I have taken people's coments in stride. I have even fixed a few things on the design that Marco and I have pointed out. So I have taken the coments. They will be posted, when they update the site.
Cool, no problem.
So what, am I suppose to totally Re-design the whole ship to fit your needs.
No. If Simon & Schuster ask me to change some thing or add something I have. I answer to them and I answer to the the the guide line that were set forth in the contest.
Pal, lighten up a bit. You just seemed to pop a cork on me, when I was actually talking about how I think your design works well within the current Starfleet concepts, but that it has a few areas that could (and I'd say, probably should) be tweaked a bit. The only CRITICISMS I gave were (1) the identified issue with the underside of the secondary hull, and (2) the issue with the impulse thrust being inconsistent with the laws of physics. I didn't say that you should dump your design, I suggested that you could easily and with almost no effort (and almost no visual impact) make it into something that would be consistent with the real world physical laws. I also tossed out a couple of suggestions for the sensor net and for why the bridge should stay on top (like, I believe you have it anyway!).
Oh well I don't want to piss anyone off I, I respect your opion, and you can hopefully respect that we disagree on a few things.
Honestly Sean, I don't think that we DO disagree on anything other than which "style" of ship we prefer. And the only thing that's "pissing me off" is the fact that nobody around here seems to be able to discuss and take even the most minor critique without taking it as some personal attack.

My critique of your design is only that "it's not my preferred style" and "the engines wouldn't work" but that it's otherwise a nice design. Since you have to fix the aft fantail anyway (to make the bottom and side views match), it would be trivial to put a third impulse unit in that general area, and have it work with both real physics and established "treknology".

My critique of Marco wasn't a critique of him at all... I still have no idea why he concluded I was talking about him, personally. I was talking about the TV guys, and I wasn't attributing malice to them, just a bit of shortsightedness and ego that, I believe, has alienated some of the "old guard" fan base, and therefore have been contributors to the recent declines in Trek's popularity.

I've also tried to turn my "loss" into a something positive... not by saying that "my design is better than yours" but rather by saying that my ship design could exist in that same world... and have even tried to come up with a new class, new class name-list... so that there could be no "competitive" element here. There's a lot of room in the Trek milleu for a lot of different ship designs. I'm just hopeful that someone, at some point, will see fit to do an "official" in the "new" era that fits the "classic" design ethic. Yours is a nice design, it's just not what I was hoping for, that's all.
No Rip on your engineering back ground. I have alway watched trek as a fan not a person saying "Hay that break a few laws of physics".
Well, put this into another context... suppose that a movie was made about pro basketball, and it was done in a way that got the rules of basketball wrong... a dozen men per side on the court, several balls at a time, whatever. Someone who knew nothing about basketball might not notice, but anyone who knows even a little about the rules of basketball would be in a state of shock, seeing someone call "first down" in basketball...

It's kind of like that. Getting the rules right isn't what makes the story, but getting them wrong is a distraction from the story. That's why I keep ragging on "Armageddon." A decent story with a good cast, but I couldn't get into the movie because the physics were just so far from reality that I was unable to "suspend my disbelief."
I am not an engineer so I don't know the ups and downs of that industry.
Of course, you don't need to. But you know that if you drop something, here or in the "Trek" universe, it falls DOWN, not UP... I'm not suggesting that you try to be an engineer. And it's perfectly OK not to have understood the physics I'm talking about. I'm just suggesting that you can make your ship into something that won't jar those of us who do out of our ability to "suspend disbelief" and keep us from enjoying the story as much as we might otherwise do.
Hard to declare a truce when you were never at war in the first place... but since you seem to think I was... absolutely, truce! [Wink]

And Sean... I DO think you did a good job... never said any differently! (And for anyone who thinks otherwise, please show me a quote where I said so...)
 
I know, and I try to give effective feedback on something like this, but I get kinda mad when someone has to come along and say something to the effect that I should just STFU because it isn't my design.
Don't let it get to you. I've tried to do the same and have also gotten pretty much the same reaction. I'm proud of what I did, but also think that Sean did a decent job and have tried to give a bit of feedback, only to uniformly slammed, just like I've seen you get.

My favorite one is the one I just read... where I got "two power clapped" by someone who probably thinks that it's better to give kids good self-esteem by telling them that their answer on a test of 2 + 2 = 6 is right, rather than to "damage" them by teaching them the right answer to a problem, or who thinks that you shouldn't use red ink when grading papers because it can be "traumatic."

Once again, I LIKE Sean's design, though I'd have preferred a different approach. I think it's good... but I think it has a few areas that need to be "polished" still, and one that he's already well aware of (the view mismatch) that should be pretty easy to clean up when working in a vector-based rendering program like I'm sure he used. I suggested a couple of potential "internal systems" things which are about thing he hadn't even really touched on (sensor net definition, and computer core location) and a suggestion to keep the "catamarans" but to rethink WHY they're there.

You've been trying to make logical, well-argued points. I've been impressed. Keep your cool, and don't let those who can't argue the same way upset you. Logical thought and clear communication tends to be a contagious condition... the more you expose someone to it, the more likely they are to catch it!

PS... I'm a military guy too... an Army intel guy who served on active duty in the late 80s and early 90s. You can't get by in the military with a thin skin, or a "touchy-feeling, don't say anything that would make people less than 100% happy" attitude.

I'm still involved in that sort of thing now, but in a non-uniformed capacity, so no need to call me "sir." Unless there's a full-out assault on the CONUS, my inactive reserve status is pretty much guaranteed! (If it did happen, I'd be an 0-4 again though...) :cool:
 
Posted by RulanAllwine:
Posted by Cary L. Brown:
Not sure why the images don't show up.
The image function can't be used until you've made more than 100 posts.

How do I see how many posts I have made? I would like to edit my profile to include an image. But as I see, I have to wait a long time.
 
Posted by JWolf:
Posted by RulanAllwine:
Posted by Cary L. Brown:
Not sure why the images don't show up.
The image function can't be used until you've made more than 100 posts.
How do I see how many posts I have made? I would like to edit my profile to include an image. But as I see, I have to wait a long time.

Click on your own username, it'll take ya to your profile page, and that has your post count on it.

:)
 
Sorry to go back a page but:

Posted by cmdrxeris:
This is a question for Sean.

Not to be nasty or anything, cos i absolutely adore the Titan design, but i was cruisung EAS just now and found this:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/nebula-bonchune.jpg

Borchune varant of the nebula, i believe (hotlink may be disabled)

It looks similar to the titan with upper module, saucer, and low-slung nacelles. Did this give you any ideas for titan?

Isn't that just a standard nebula class?
 
Posted by Trek:
Sorry to go back a page but:

Posted by cmdrxeris:
This is a question for Sean.

Not to be nasty or anything, cos i absolutely adore the Titan design, but i was cruisung EAS just now and found this:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/nebula-bonchune.jpg

Borchune varant of the nebula, i believe (hotlink may be disabled)

It looks similar to the titan with upper module, saucer, and low-slung nacelles. Did this give you any ideas for titan?

Isn't that just a standard nebula class?

Yeah, pretty much. I don't see what cmdrxeris was getting at. While the Bonchune may have extreamly minor variations from the Nebula standard, it is just a plain old Neb. I have no doubt that the Nebula along with the Miranda, Intrepid and Akira heavily influenced Sean's fantastic work.

Aaron McGuire
 
If you'll read previous posts, guys, sean said that he had not seen the nebula variants, and therefore they didn't influence him.

As for the borchune variant, the pod at the top is actually a dedicated sensor pod, but for the nebula's mission profile it wasn't accepted by starfleet and it was dropped. that was my point. the sensor module on the titan looks to me like an upgraded version of the borchune sensor pod.

but sean said it didn't influence so it doesn't really matter. I shoulda made myself clear about what i was talking about with the pic
 
Posted by cmdrxeris:
If you'll read previous posts, guys, sean said that he had not seen the nebula variants, and therefore they didn't influence him.

As for the borchune variant, the pod at the top is actually a dedicated sensor pod, but for the nebula's mission profile it wasn't accepted by starfleet and it was dropped. that was my point. the sensor module on the titan looks to me like an upgraded version of the borchune sensor pod.

but sean said it didn't influence so it doesn't really matter. I shoulda made myself clear about what i was talking about with the pic

Wasn't really questioning whether the nebula was a design influance or not (although I was surprised to see that he hadn't seen that design of considering that it's been used dozens of times across TNG, DS9 and Voyager). What confused me was the suggestion that the USS Bonchune is different to all the other Nebula's with a Weapons Pod (which is what the triangular shaped pod on that class of ship is, as first seen oon the USS Sutherland). The Science pod that got dropped after it's first and only appearance was on the USS Pheonix in "The Wounded".

Anyway - Still think this is a cool design Sean. :)
 
Posted by Captain X:
Posted by Marco Palmieri:
For the record, those of us who work on the fiction--and that includes the Titan Contest--consider thoughtfully expressed criticism a welcome part of making ourselves accessible in this fashion, and are happy to engage in such discussions. :)
I know, and I try to give effective feedback on something like this, but I get kinda mad when someone has to come along and say something to the effect that I should just STFU because it isn't my design.

I sincerely hope that won't discourage you from commenting further, should you feel so inclined.
 
Posted by Titan Designer:
I just enjoy reading and watching the adventures that take place in this Universe.

Keeping in mind that this contest was for fans and not engineers, and that it was won by a fan and not an engineer, I cannot help but see some of these criticisms as sour grapes, pure and simple.

It's just a fricking TV show. Relax. So instead of "fixing" "obvious" flaws, how about designing a ship that makes a nicer and more modern "whoosh" sound as it orbits a planet? You know, kinda like mondern day ring tones.

Gimme a break.
 
Posted by Bobatiel:

Keeping in mind that this contest was for fans and not engineers, and that it was won by a fan and not an engineer, I cannot help but see some of these criticisms as sour grapes, pure and simple.

Exactly. Cary L. Brown's comments on this board and the other S&S board come off as just that, and quite frankly, they're tiresome. And judging from both boards, I'm not the only one who feels that way. Sean won, he had the best design based on the criteria, and that's that. It's a great design, and if you don't like it, that's fine- but don't whine about it. Cary L. Brown's comments and others (such as someone in the Trek Art board commenting that Sean's "Titan_Designer" name sounded self-serving) are the height of fan pettiness. Give the man his due, congratulate him, and let him have his moment. Don't ruin it.

Posted by Bobatiel:
Gimme a break.

Amen.
 
Again, I think the ship looks very slick. I recently re-read "Taking Wing" in preparation for starting "The Red King".

I'll have you all know that in visualizing the Titan in action during the battle over Romulus, Sean's design fit into the action perfectly. Of course it should be the winner! :cool:
 
Posted by Cary L. Brown:
Sean, I AM NOT RIPPING YOUR DESIGN. Sheesh, pal... I made a suggestion regarding fixing the impulse engine placement over here. And I have not "ripped" it over there, either. Show me a quote where I "ripped you" or where I "ripped your design."

I am not "upset." And I'm not "writing a book saying that mine is better."

I've written, there, about how I was hoping for a more "classic trek" design ethic, because I was hoping that this series would pick up the "classic trek" legacy. While I said that I prefer the "classic" design ethic, that I would have liked a choice that followed that, and that I'm disppointed that they chose a design so clearly "New Trek" rather than "classic Trek", I have never "slammed" your design in any way.

And here, I wrote a note making a couple of suggestions about how to make your design, with almost trivial fixes, into a PRACTICAL design (fyi, just some talk about relocation of impulse exhausts to make it work with well-understood Newtonian principles).

NEITHER ONE "RIPS" ON YOU OR YOUR DESIGN. I've seen people post that they actually don't like yours... I think it fits well into the Star Trek milleu, I just wanted to see a different approach, that's all.

I write very fast. I can type a note like this one in a matter of a couple of minutes. So it's not a big deal for me to write "a book." You don't have to read it if you'd prefer not, but I don't mind writing.

I don't understand why people seem to expect nothing but positive reactions and can't deal with anything less than 100% positive reactions. It's not a personal attack, or an attack on your design.



I think you're both overeacting a bit. Neither of you have been insulting each other. And this "classic" and "new trek" discussion is a misnomer. All the Treks share a similar design lineage. Both ships are admirable in their use of design details from modern Trek. Having said that, I think Cary's design leans toward an Excelsior type ship-- though somewhat clunky in the 3D views--and Sean's builds from the best of Nebula/Sovereign and is probably the best choice for the Titan.

RAMA
 
Posted by RAMA:I think you're both overeacting a bit. Neither of you have been insulting each other. And this "classic" and "new trek" discussion is a misnomer. All the Treks share a similar design lineage. Both ships are admirable in their use of design details from modern Trek. Having said that, I think Cary's design leans toward an Excelsior type ship-- though somewhat clunky in the 3D views--and Sean's builds from the best of Nebula/Sovereign and is probably the best choice for the Titan.

RAMA

Yeah we all know the real debate is:

For a hood ornament, should the "Pimp" team use:

1) a gold dipped, old school Starfleet Delta insignia,

2) the TNG combadge Delta done up in platinum and latinum, or

3) the gold dipped Deanna Troi figurine looking all tasty with the flowing robe a'la Rolls Royce?

Chollo's leaning towards Dee if we can do her circa season four through six...

Holla, y'all!

Later!

Ali
 
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