Typhon Pact Concept

[Christopher]

The Federation has never engaged in the kind of mindless mass slaughter that the Gorn did in "Arena".

But the Klingons have. And the Andorians were at war with the Vulcans for a long time before the UFP was founded. And let's not forget all the slaughters humans have inflicted on other humans over the centuries.

And the word "mindless" is itself a racial slur. They had a territorial claim on the planet, and they defended their territory. Extreme? By human standards, yes. But mindless? Obviously not, because they conducted the operation with considerable cunning and technological sophistication. "Mindless" is hateful propaganda, not fair, intelligent analysis. By using such language, you undermine your own position.

I do not, and never will, buy the explanation that the Gorn were simply defending themselves in that episode. Their attack on Cestus III was brutal in the extreme. As has already been pointed out, the Gorn gave no warning, showed no mercy, allowed no surrender. If the Gorn really *had* been defending themselves, they would logically have allowed the colony to defend ITself.

How is it logical to assume that an alien species would be bound by human logic? The Gorn are a highly territorial species. They felt their territory had been invaded. They retaliated aggressively against the incursion to send a message to the perceived invaders. By their own logic as a culture, there was a reason for it. We may consider their reaction disproportionate and vicious, but the fact remains that they were provoked -- that our failure to understand, or even recognize the existence of, an alien culture and its values led to the conflict. This is what happens in contacts between aliens. They have different values, but that doesn't mean that conflict can't be avoided through mutual understanding.

And the fact remains that, despite that initial conflict, the Federation and the Gorn have maintained good relations for over a century thereafter. They have never gone to war with one another, aside from that one aberration with the Black Crest coup. They have historically maintained neutral or normal diplomatic relations. You can't judge an entire history of interaction by a single incident. Do you still hate Japan for Pearl Harbor? Do you still hate the British for sacking Washington, DC and burning down the White House in the War of 1812? Do you hate the Klingons for invading Organia? Military conflicts in the past don't make it impossible to be allies in the future.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

The Federation has never engaged in the kind of mindless mass slaughter that the Gorn did in "Arena".

Kodos. Gill. Eddington. Dougherty. Zife. Sure, the Federation claims some of these men acted alone, but do you think the Gorn believe that?

How many people do you think died on Beta III or Neural as a direct result of the Federation mucking about in planetary politics, in blatant violation of their own stated principles.

Do you know that Section 31 never did anything so heinous, and no foreign power knows of their activities?

Are we to believe that Starfleet never deviated from the Marquis of Kingsbury Rule when fighting the Romulans, Cardassians, or Dominion?

Just about everything in the Star Trek universe, we see from the Federation point of view, and of course they view themselves as the good guys. But looked at objectively, it's hard to see how Admiral McCrazypants represents the exception and not the rule.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How is it logical to assume that an alien species would be bound by human logic?

By conducting the attack at Cestus, the Gorn clearly expected the Federation to be bound by *their* logic. Payback's a bitch, innit?

the fact remains that they were provoked -- that our failure to understand, or even recognize the existence of, an alien culture and its values led to the conflict.

The Federation didn't even know the Gorn *existed* before this happened, so how can they be expected to recognize the values of an alien culture they don't know is there? If the Gorn's territory had been clearly marked, and the Federation violated it anyway, then I can see where the blame might lie. But not like this.

The Federation has never engaged in the kind of mindless mass slaughter that the Gorn did in "Arena".

Kodos. Gill. Eddington. Dougherty. Zife. Sure, the Federation claims some of these men acted alone, but do you think the Gorn believe that?

If the Gorn let the Federation make its case, I think they will.

How many people do you think died on Beta III or Neural as a direct result of the Federation mucking about in planetary politics, in blatant violation of their own stated principles.

In Neural's case, the Klingons had already interfered, and Kirk was just going by his own interpretation of the Prime Directive - restoring the balance of power. Or would you have preferred that Tyree's group be slaughtered?

Do you know that Section 31 never did anything so heinous, and no foreign power knows of their activities?

But looked at objectively, it's hard to see how Admiral McCrazypants represents the exception and not the rule.

If the entire Federation must share the blame for a few rogue Section 31 operatives, then why not blame the Gorn for Cestus III?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

How is it logical to assume that an alien species would be bound by human logic? The Gorn are a highly territorial species. They felt their territory had been invaded. They retaliated aggressively against the incursion to send a message to the perceived invaders. By their own logic as a culture, there was a reason for it. We may consider their reaction disproportionate and vicious, but the fact remains that they were provoked -- that our failure to understand, or even recognize the existence of, an alien culture and its values led to the conflict.

As it happens, another poster treated the issue:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4616246&postcount=34
"This [...] seems to me to be very similar to defending human rights abuses with 'their culture is different'. The Klingons, the Borg, the Dominion aren't bad just because they have a different culture, they're bad because they are conquerers! True, I guess that's a value judgment in of it's self, but is anyone seriously suggesting it isn't the right judgement, one that would be shared by most sentient species? Is it that hard that to think that most developed sentient species in Trekverse will agree that the male Ferengies treating their biologically/capabilities-wise equal females as slaves is wrong?"

I want to add to this the fact that the Fedeeration has its own values (the right to life, freedom, etc).
If the Federation is willing to throw its fundamental moral values into the garbage bin - and not judge the situation in accordance to its values - and this for an apparent 'peaceful coexistence' - in reality, for being bullied by the gorn - then the Federation betrayed its values, it has become coomletely worthless.

I recently read your excellent story 'Places of exile'.
If abandoning your values in the name of so-called 'peaceful coexistence' when you meet another culture is recomendable, then the Vostigye should have abandoned Voyager's crew to the Voth. After all, the Voth have their own values, according to which their actions are perfectly fine - which makes their actions fully moral from your POV, too.

When the borg come to destroy/assimilate your culture, you should let them do it. After all, according to what passes for values for the borg, killing and assimilating is desirable - which makes it desirable from your POV.

"The gorn massacred everyone in the Cestus III colony - man, woman, child. That's an obvious war crime - according to human moral values -, comparable to Oradour-sur-glane (France, WW2) or My Lai (Vietnam)."


Shon T'Hara

Your posts were proven as non-sense the moment you said:
"The set-up for Arena seems modeled on Westerns, with the Gorn as Indians and the Enterprise as the cavalry, which I'm not inclined to compare with My Lai"
Really? Killing every man, woman and child in a city is NOT a war crime, according to you?

The future gorn/enterprise actions and your lttle western comparison for them has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that what the gorn did - massacred every single person in a city - is a blatant war crime.
And that, regardless of the circumstances - and, in 'Arena', they only made the gorn look even more monstruous - militarily, they were FAR superior, they knew the colonists were unaware of being in gorn space (the gorn gatherred significant intel on the colonists), they gave no warning, offered no mercy, etc.

"If the Wampanoag had attacked the Plymouth Colony, would you call that a war crime or foresight?"
If the Wampanoag would have killed every man, woman and child in Plymouth Colony, then yes, Shon T'Hara, I DO call that a war crime, comparable to Oradour-sur-glane (France, WW2) or My Lai (Vietnam).
War crimes don't suddenly become acceptable just because you have paranoid fantasies about what might happen (see the so-called reason for the WW2 "Holocaust') or because you're on the losing side of a war.
There are NO CIRCUMSTANCES under which war crimes become acceptable.

And, of course, the gorn were definitely NOT on the losing side of anything.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Do you know that Section 31 never did anything so heinous, and no foreign power knows of their activities?

Attempting to kill the entire Founder race through biological warfare sounds pretty heinous to me. Or are you saying "all's fair in love and war?"

I think the Typhon Pact would have worked better if we had seen a few instances of TP member working to assist current Federation members and then finding out that they're allied with the Tholians, Kinshaya, etc. It would have caught the Federation off guard. They're helping us. Is it out of the goodness of the hearts (those that have them) or are they attempting to subvert our members. By starting out with conflict, it puts the TP in the position of being the bad guys right off the bat. I think having the "twist" revealed halfway through would have made things more interesting. As it is, at the halfway mark the TP series is rating a low B/mid C.

 

[Christopher]

By conducting the attack at Cestus, the Gorn clearly expected the Federation to be bound by *their* logic.

Yes, and they were wrong to assume that, just as you're wrong to assume the reverse. Nobody's denying that Cestus III was a mutual misunderstanding. The point is that the established history of Gorn-UFP relations post-Cestus III has not been one of enmity.

The Federation didn't even know the Gorn *existed* before this happened, so how can they be expected to recognize the values of an alien culture they don't know is there?

Not the point. The point is that, by understanding after the fact that the incident had been caused by miscommunication and fear between two cultures who both considered themselves to be on the defensive, the two powers were able to avoid conflict subsequent to that incident.

It's just a fact of life that when different cultures with different values, assumptions, and psychologies come into first contact, it will sometimes result in tragic errors of comprehension. Heck, half the first-contact stories in Trek lore are about instances where relations started out hostile but Kirk or Picard or whoever eventually found a way to establish peace and understanding. How many innocent miners did the Horta kill? How many innocent Floridians and Cubans did the Xindi kill?

Starfleet's mentality is not "They hurt us, that makes them evil and we'll hate them forevermore." Their mentality is "They hurt us, so let's figure out why they felt they had to hurt us and find a way to convince them we can coexist peacefully instead." "Arena" is just one of countless examples of that.

If the entire Federation must share the blame for a few rogue Section 31 operatives, then why not blame the Gorn for Cestus III?

Clearly Shon T'Hara's point is precisely the opposite -- that since the entire Federation can't reasonably be blamed for a few Section 31 operatives, it's just as unreasonable to condemn the entire Gorn civilization for a single violent incident -- especially when the Trek Lit continuity unambiguously demonstrates that UFP/Gorn relations were good prior to their joining the Pact, and when virtually all other Gorn-related tie-in fiction paints them sympathetically.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

By conducting the attack at Cestus, the Gorn clearly expected the Federation to be bound by *their* logic.

Yes, and they were wrong to assume that, just as you're wrong to assume the reverse. Nobody's denying that Cestus III was a mutual misunderstanding.

I already told you - there was no misunderstanding on the gorn's part.
They knew of the colonists' lack of information, of the colony's limited self-defense capabilities. Their understanding of the circumstances was accurate.
The gorn gave no warning, showed no mercy. They just killed everyone - including non-combatants. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

And in the recent 'Seize the fire', the gorn did the same thing, albeit on a much larger scale - they callously tried to kill an entire sentient species.

 

[David R. George III]

...now that the Romulan Empire has been reunited.

Reunited? So no more Imperial Romulan State, then? (I haven't read any of the Typhon Pact novels)

Guys, my novel is just beginning to appear in bookstores, and there is no spoiler warning on this thread. I've been diligent about not posting spoilers outside of hidden text, so I'd appreciate it if you would do so as well. Thanks.

 

[Sci]

By conducting the attack at Cestus, the Gorn clearly expected the Federation to be bound by *their* logic.

Yes, and they were wrong to assume that, just as you're wrong to assume the reverse. Nobody's denying that Cestus III was a mutual misunderstanding.

I already told you - there was no misunderstanding on the gorn's part.
They knew of the colonists' lack of information, of the colony's limited self-defense capabilities. Their understanding of the circumstances was accurate.

You are literally making stuff up here. There is no indication whatsoever that the Gorn knew that the Federates were unaware of the Hegemony's existence and territorial claim.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Yes, and they were wrong to assume that, just as you're wrong to assume the reverse. Nobody's denying that Cestus III was a mutual misunderstanding.

I already told you - there was no misunderstanding on the gorn's part.
They knew of the colonists' lack of information, of the colony's limited self-defense capabilities. Their understanding of the circumstances was accurate.

You are literally making stuff up here. There is no indication whatsoever that the Gorn knew that the Federates were unaware of the Hegemony's existence and territorial claim.

Beyond the fact the gorn knew the federation had no way of knowing that unmarked territory was claimed by them?

The gorn knew enough to call the enterprise with a federation signal encrypted with the correct codes, to invite Kirk to the residence of the colony's major, all in perfect english.
The gorn had detailed information about the colony - they studied it very closely. Starting with its transmissions, continuing with its habits, etc.

"Their understanding of the circumstances was accurate.
The gorn gave no warning, showed no mercy. They just killed everyone - including non-combatants. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing."

And in the recent 'Seize the fire', the gorn did the same thing, albeit on a much larger scale - they callously tried to kill an entire sentient species.

No, the Gorn did not. A rogue faction did.

Rogue? Hardly.

 

[Sci]

I already told you - there was no misunderstanding on the gorn's part.
They knew of the colonists' lack of information, of the colony's limited self-defense capabilities. Their understanding of the circumstances was accurate.

You are literally making stuff up here. There is no indication whatsoever that the Gorn knew that the Federates were unaware of the Hegemony's existence and territorial claim.

Beyond the fact the gorn knew the federation had no way of knowing that unmarked territory was claimed by them?

The gorn knew enough to call the enterprise with a Federation signal encrypted with the correct codes, to invite Kirk to the residence of the colony's major, all in perfect english.

And you have evidence they obtained this information before they destroyed the colony?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

You are literally making stuff up here. There is no indication whatsoever that the Gorn knew that the Federates were unaware of the Hegemony's existence and territorial claim.

Beyond the fact the gorn knew the federation had no way of knowing that unmarked territory was claimed by them?

The gorn knew enough to call the enterprise with a Federation signal encrypted with the correct codes, to invite Kirk to the residence of the colony's major, all in perfect english.

And you have evidence they obtained this information before they destroyed the colony?

By the time the gorn were done massacring the colony, there was little to no information there to be obtained. The colonists were all dead, the infrastructure destroyed.

Plus - they maintaned the same behavioural pattern even after they destroyed the colony - trying to kill Kirk&co after luring him into a trap, attacking the enterprise, being unrepentant for their actions, etc.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know what the point of arguing about Cestus III is. However you choose to interpret that incident, the evidence shows unambiguously that subsequent UFP-Gorn relations have historically been non-hostile. At worst they've been neutral, and A Time to Heal, Articles of the Federation, and Destiny established unambiguously that normal diplomatic relations existed between the two states at the time. Which is only logical, since the Gorn ruling caste owes its continued existence to Picard and Data (as seen in The Gorn Crisis), and thus the post-2374 Gorn government has good reason to be friendly toward the Federation. Even if there had been some malevolent intent behind Cestus III, that was more than a century in the past. It's clearly not relevant to "current" affairs.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

the fact remains that they were provoked -- that our failure to understand, or even recognize the existence of, an alien culture and its values led to the conflict.

The Federation didn't even know the Gorn *existed* before this happened, so how can they be expected to recognize the values of an alien culture they don't know is there? If the Gorn's territory had been clearly marked, and the Federation violated it anyway, then I can see where the blame might lie. But not like this.

I would expect the Federation to explore enough of a region to establish if it belongs to someone before dropping colonists on a planet.

How many people do you think died on Beta III or Neural as a direct result of the Federation mucking about in planetary politics, in blatant violation of their own stated principles.

In Neural's case, the Klingons had already interfered, and Kirk was just going by his own interpretation of the Prime Directive - restoring the balance of power. Or would you have preferred that Tyree's group be slaughtered?

If the Federation wants to take the moral high ground with a policy of non-interference, then yes. Throwing out your principles when realpolitik comes into play and then expecting everyone to go on viewing you as a moral paragon -- well, let's just say, A Private Little War was a metaphor of something going on in the '60s and leave it at that.

Do you know that Section 31 never did anything so heinous, and no foreign power knows of their activities?

But looked at objectively, it's hard to see how Admiral McCrazypants represents the exception and not the rule.

If the entire Federation must share the blame for a few rogue Section 31 operatives, then why not blame the Gorn for Cestus III?

You have the point backwards.

 

[Sci]

Beyond the fact the gorn knew the federation had no way of knowing that unmarked territory was claimed by them?

The gorn knew enough to call the enterprise with a Federation signal encrypted with the correct codes, to invite Kirk to the residence of the colony's major, all in perfect english.

And you have evidence they obtained this information before they destroyed the colony?

By the time the gorn were done massacring the colony, there was little to no information there to be obtained. The colonists were all dead, the infrastructure destroyed.

Plus - they maintaned the same behavioural pattern even after they destroyed the colony - trying to kill Kirk&co after luring him into a trap, attacking the enterprise, being unrepentant for their actions, etc.

In other words, no, you don't have evidence that that information was obtained before they destroyed the colony.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I don't know what the point of arguing about Cestus III is. However you choose to interpret that incident, the evidence shows unambiguously that subsequent UFP-Gorn relations have historically been non-hostile. At worst they've been neutral, and A Time to Heal, Articles of the Federation, and Destiny established unambiguously that normal diplomatic relations existed between the two states at the time. Which is only logical, since the Gorn ruling caste owes its continued existence to Picard and Data (as seen in The Gorn Crisis), and thus the post-2374 Gorn government has good reason to be friendly toward the Federation. Even if there had been some malevolent intent behind Cestus III, that was more than a century in the past. It's clearly not relevant to "current" affairs.

I never disputed that the gorn have been neutral and, why not, at times friendly toward the federation in recent trekverse history - but, even then, gorn factions opposed to the federation were depicted as having considerable influence within their society.
What I disputed was the gorn actions in 'Arena' being regarded with clemency instead of called what they really are - a blatant war crime.

Indeed, the presence in the Typhon Pact of a species that cannot be immediately and convincingly depicted as aggressive towards the Federation is welcomed - it has the potential to make the Typhon Pact stories much more interesting than the standard cold war intrigue.
I think that depicting the tholians as so aggressive in 'A singular destiny' and not building on the tholian-federate cooperation established in the Vanguard books was uninspired - at present, the gorn are the only candidates for being the reasonable typhon pact species, and this depiction is a lot less convincing, a lot more brusque in their case (especially considering that most readers know of the gorn only what's established on-screen, not reading every comic or book).
And, with Bahir killing left and right in ZSG and the Pact forming overnight, complete with a common currency, the Typhon Pact books stretched credibility as it is.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

And you have evidence they obtained this information before they destroyed the colony?

By the time the gorn were done massacring the colony, there was little to no information there to be obtained. The colonists were all dead, the infrastructure destroyed.

Plus - they maintaned the same behavioural pattern even after they destroyed the colony - trying to kill Kirk&co after luring him into a trap, attacking the enterprise, being unrepentant for their actions, etc.

In other words, no, you don't have evidence that that information was obtained before they destroyed the colony.

In other words, it's clear they obtained the informtion before destroying the colony.
But, as you always do, you start with ridiculously implausible hypotheticals.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I don't know what the point of arguing about Cestus III is. However you choose to interpret that incident, the evidence shows unambiguously that subsequent UFP-Gorn relations have historically been non-hostile. At worst they've been neutral, and A Time to Heal, Articles of the Federation, and Destiny established unambiguously that normal diplomatic relations existed between the two states at the time. Which is only logical, since the Gorn ruling caste owes its continued existence to Picard and Data (as seen in The Gorn Crisis), and thus the post-2374 Gorn government has good reason to be friendly toward the Federation. Even if there had been some malevolent intent behind Cestus III, that was more than a century in the past. It's clearly not relevant to "current" affairs.

Are the Typhon pact novels being written with the Gorn Crisis being considered part of the background? Is the comic considered part of the the novel continuity?

 

[Shon T'Hara]

Shon T'Hara

Your posts were proven as non-sense the moment you said:
"The set-up for Arena seems modeled on Westerns, with the Gorn as Indians and the Enterprise as the cavalry, which I'm not inclined to compare with My Lai"
Really? Killing every man, woman and child in a city is NOT a war crime, according to you?

I'm saying that even John Wayne Westerns from the 1950s acknowledged that the Indians had a point, and attacks on settlers, while regrettable, were hardly unjustified. If the US had gone around charging Indians with war crimes, it would've made the very concept of war crimes into a joke, something the powerful use to punish vanquished foes. And that's clearly the context in which we're supposed to view the events of Arena.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Don't know if the Black Crest arc will be acknowledged. Sometimes the comics have Gorn off on their own.