Typhon Pact Concept

[KingstonTrekker]

I apologize if this topic has been covered elsewhere....if so I would ask the moderators to please close this new thread.

Having read the first two Typhon Pact books...I have been doing some reflecting.

I feel that the whole Typhon Pact concept lacks...creativity. It seems like the editors, authors, whomever...looked around at the devastated post-Destiny landscape and asked "OK -- who can be the next threat to the Federation?".

The answer --- a bunch of second-rate powers (the leftovers if you will) who are not particularly interesting (at least in how they have been "explored" so far in the Typhon Pact books.)

I also feel that it has not been adequately explained as to WHY they have come together --- aside from seeing possible value in ganging up on a weakened Federation. To me, this is not enough...these are diverse cultures with historically conflicting interests and even territorial paranoia...there needs to be additional exploration/explanation as to WHY they would put all of this aside and come together -- a weakened Federation is just not a solid enough sole motivator.

From what the authors have indicated on here, it appears that the Typhon Pact is here to stay...if this is the case, I hope the Pact becomes more interesting. At this point, they are largely just cookie-cutter antagonists.

 

[Smellincoffee]

The Romulan Star Empire has a strong interest in finding allies: as mentioned in A Singular Destiny, Donatra's Imperial Romulan State has most of the breadbasket worlds; in that book, a main character stated that in time, all the Romulan planets would join Donatra over Tal'Aura in due course for that very reason.

Just because these outside powers are isolationist or xenophobic does not mean they lack rationality. They can strategize and make concessions in anticipation of future profits. Think of Nazi Germany and Japan: both ruled by racist imperialists who decide to work together (at least on the face of things) to take on the world's great powers. Then, just as in the post-Destiny world, the great powers of the world had been gutted. For the Gorn and Breen, who have lived for so long as marginalized power, the post-destiny world is an opportunity to rise to supremacy.

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Very solid points...thank you.

I guess maybe the larger issue here might be in the creation and execution of the whole Typhon Pact concept. Perhaps the coming together of these powers has not been explored adequately in order to build the foundation for the Pact to be a convincing threat to the Federation? Maybe the writers have not "built the foundation" effectively?

 

[KRAD]

I feel that the whole Typhon Pact concept lacks...creativity. It seems like the editors, authors, whomever...looked around at the devastated post-Destiny landscape and asked "OK -- who can be the next threat to the Federation?".

Well, since I'm the guy who co-conceived it, along with Marco Palmieri, I can safely say that that's not how we conceived it.

The idea was to come up with a logical outgrowth of the devastation we got in Destiny. The Pact didn't come together in order to become an antagonist to the Federation. Quite the opposite: they were inspired by the Federation. In the wake of the Borg invasion, the powers are all less than they were, but as allies they can shore up each others' weaknesses.

As Sonek Pran said at the end of A Singular Destiny when the Pact formed, their motivation is not dissimilar to that of the humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites who formed the Federation.

 

[BrotherBenny]

...and the Federation is, even in a fairly weakened state, still the strongest interstellar power.

To me, the Typhon Pact is just rife for storytelling purposes and could lead, in the far future, to a unified galactic power.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Exactly. I was opposed to the concept at first, but now I realize all of the story possibilities that are eav'oqed by it.

*pause*

What?

 

[David R. George III]

...I realize all of the story possibilities that are eav'oqed by it.

A phrase nicely turned.

 

[Sci]

Which is not to say, however, that conflict won't arise. Certainly the Federation and Typhon Pact regard themselves as being in a state of cold war as of Zero Sum Game. I suspect we may see that change by the time of the last Typhon Pact novel -- maybe their role in the Andorian crisis will prompt a change of some sort?

 

[Turtletrekker]

...I realize all of the story possibilities that are eav'oqed by it.

A phrase nicely turned.

Please, don't enourage him.

 

[David R. George III]

^In general, I would agree, but I found the employment of the word eav'oq unexpected and therefore delightful. (Of course, I would have said, "I realized all the story possibilities it eav'oqs," but hey, I'm a writer.)

 

[kkozoriz1]

I can see the possibilities in a rival to the Federation but, thus far, it's been rooted in conflict. I'd prefer to see how someone would handle a rival that's actually trying to out Federation the Federation. What we have now are a bunch of enemy states that have banded together.

 

[Sci]

I can see the possibilities in a rival to the Federation but, thus far, it's been rooted in conflict. I'd prefer to see how someone would handle a rival that's actually trying to out Federation the Federation. What we have now are a bunch of enemy states that have banded together.

Of course, we're only two books in.

 

[kkozoriz1]

But, all the TP states have had active, violent opposition the the Federation (and the Klingons in the case of the Kinshaya.) Not a moderate in the bunch.

 

[JD]

I'm pretty sure the Gorn have been fairly friendly (or at least not openly hostile) with Federation for a while now.

I think so far my biggest disappointment with the Typhon Pact is the fact that we aren't getting any kind of a Klingon Empire/Kinshaya novel.

 

[flandry84]

It would be nice if the Typhon pact were comprised of some lesser established races too.I would really like to see a race like the Caldonians become the "intellectual"members of such an alliance.Make the Typhon pact so much more than a group of moustache twirling villains.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

I feel that the whole Typhon Pact concept lacks...creativity. It seems like the editors, authors, whomever...looked around at the devastated post-Destiny landscape and asked "OK -- who can be the next threat to the Federation?".

It is the logical outcome of the situation. Not only is the Federation severely weakened, but the Klingons as well, while the Cardasians are still recovering from the Dominion War and the Romulans are turning into the Balkans of space. In short, there's a huge power vacuum, and it would be unbelievable if no one took advantage of it.

The answer --- a bunch of second-rate powers (the leftovers if you will) who are not particularly interesting (at least in how they have been "explored" so far in the Typhon Pact books.)

I also feel that it has not been adequately explained as to WHY they have come together --- aside from seeing possible value in ganging up on a weakened Federation. To me, this is not enough...these are diverse cultures with historically conflicting interests and even territorial paranoia...there needs to be additional exploration/explanation as to WHY they would put all of this aside and come together -- a weakened Federation is just not a solid enough sole motivator.

They're second tier powers who've been taking crap from the Federation and Klingons for a long time. It's surprising they've never formed alliances before.

Also consider the impact of the slipstream drives. Strategically, this is a severely destabilizing technology. Based upon the figures given in Unworthy, a slipstream vessel can travel about 375 lightyears per minute -- think about that, a Federation attack fleet could cross the distance from the edge of a civilization's long-range sensors to their border in a matter of seconds, and penetrate to the heart of their territory in minutes. If you were the Breen or Tholians, wouldn't you be looking for all the allies you can to counter the Federation's new offensive technology?

 

[kkozoriz1]

That's a problem I have with he slipstream drive. It's basically just really fast warp drive. perhaps if there was some sort of drawback or side effect. If slipstream is 375ly/minute then Voyager could have made the trip home in less than 3 1/2 hours! You could cross an 8000 ly Federation in less than 22 minutes.

When TNH started one of the reasons Roddenberry have for re-doing the warp scale was to prevent things from getting too fast. As a jump in technology it's too big. Let's not forget that the long range beaming also came from the prime universe.

 

[Christopher]

It would be nice if the Typhon pact were comprised of some lesser established races too.I would really like to see a race like the Caldonians become the "intellectual"members of such an alliance.Make the Typhon pact so much more than a group of moustache twirling villains.

Well, that was the point of including the Gorn. Remember, the whole point of "Arena" is that the Gorn were not the vicious predators they were initially assumed to be; that despite their fearsome appearance, they were merely defending their territory. And aside from The Gorn Crisis graphic novel, in which a militant fringe sect overthrew the sitting government, there's no indication that the Gorn have ever subsequently been hostile toward the Federation. The whole point of having them join the Pact was to give it at least one member that has historically been neutral rather than hostile toward the Federation.

It's true that Seize the Fire focuses on a similarly militant branch of Gorn society, but it also establishes that the Gorn have other castes such as scientists and artists. It would be a mistake to characterize them as "moustache-twirling villains."

 

[KingstonTrekker]

I feel that the whole Typhon Pact concept lacks...creativity. It seems like the editors, authors, whomever...looked around at the devastated post-Destiny landscape and asked "OK -- who can be the next threat to the Federation?".

Well, since I'm the guy who co-conceived it, along with Marco Palmieri, I can safely say that that's not how we conceived it.

The idea was to come up with a logical outgrowth of the devastation we got in Destiny. The Pact didn't come together in order to become an antagonist to the Federation. Quite the opposite: they were inspired by the Federation. In the wake of the Borg invasion, the powers are all less than they were, but as allies they can shore up each others' weaknesses.

As Sonek Pran said at the end of A Singular Destiny when the Pact formed, their motivation is not dissimilar to that of the humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites who formed the Federation.

Thanks for this additional perspective. However, respectfully, I don't know if these original intentions for the Typhon Pact have carried over to the actual execution of the concept in the first three books (yes...I just finished Rough Beasts of Empire).​

BE WARNED: THERE ARE SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVE NOT READ ROUGH BEASTS OF EMPIRE​

The first two books never really explored the motivations of the Breen or Gorn in joining the Typhon Pact.​

The third book does give additional depth to the motivations of the Tzenkethi and Romulan Star Empire. However...I don't see any of the parallels which you have suggested to the founding of the Federation. Rough Beasts of Empire emphasizes, if anything, the attempts of the Tzenkethi and Romulan Star Empire to strengthen THEMSELVES in relation to the Federation. The Romulans want to reunite their divided empire (which is also a goal of the Tzenkethi) to make the Pact a much stronger balance for the Federation. More specificually, the Romulans want to be the pre-eminent power within the Typhon Pact...to give them a foundation for future conquest. No matter how you spin it...this is not a similar motivation to the powers who formed the Federation​

In addition, according to Enterprise, it took years for the Federation to come together. The Typhon Pact books gloss over the whole "coming together" process --- it makes it appear that these very dissimilar powers had a few meetings and then all was good. Rough Beasts of Empire spends basically ONE PAGE (p. 97) describing a summit meeting where the Typhon Pact members came to quick agreement on incredibly contentious issues such as: mutual defense; use of a common currency; and the sharing of weapons, defensive systems, agricultural advances, machinery, food, and medical provisions. Even if several meetings preceded the one depicted on page 97, these are MAJOR areas which would take YEARS of negotiations and brokering to bring six disparate and very ALIEN cultures to common understanding and agreement. This is how it happened with the Federation. In contrast, the formation of the Typhon Pact is handled much too superficially and quickly -- for no other purpose (at least that I can see) than to provide an expedient storytelling adversary (cold war, hot war, or otherwise) for the Federation in it's weakened post-Destiny state​

By the end of Rough Beasts of Empire, it is very apparent that a Cold War type status quo/competition/balance/ adversarial relationship will be the new norm between the Typhon Pact and Federation. Of course, this reflects the deliberate intention to mirror the Warsaw Pact/NATO relationship of the second half of the 20th Century. It also brings to mind the balance of power between the Klingons, Romulans, and Federation during Kirk Prime's time.​

So...with respect KRAD...for the reasons outlined above, I feel that the execution of the Typhon Pact concept has been much less than ideal...and the Pact largely exists (despite whatever intentions you and others may have had) as an expedient coming together of a bunch of second-rate powers to be a new adversary for the Federation in the post-Destiny setting​

P.S.

You could argue that the Warsaw Pact's formation (which appears to have been the historical inspiration for the Typhon Pact) was also quite quick --- however one dominant power, the Soviet Union, drove the process and controlled the other members. Hmmm...perhaps the Warsaw Pact was not an appropriate genesis/inspiration/analogy for the Typhon Pact --- the history of the Warsaw Pact's formation does not align with the motivations which you have outlined, KRAD, for the relationships between, and the motivations of, the Typhon Pact powers. I would propose that the same could be said for the NATO/Warsaw Pact relationship which apparently is the historical parallel for the relationship between the Typhon Pact and the Federation. Maybe the writers and editors needed to read a bit of 20th Century History before proceeding with this concept and developing the books.​

 

[kkozoriz1]

It would be nice if the Typhon pact were comprised of some lesser established races too.I would really like to see a race like the Caldonians become the "intellectual"members of such an alliance.Make the Typhon pact so much more than a group of moustache twirling villains.

Well, that was the point of including the Gorn. Remember, the whole point of "Arena" is that the Gorn were not the vicious predators they were initially assumed to be; that despite their fearsome appearance, they were merely defending their territory. And aside from The Gorn Crisis graphic novel, in which a militant fringe sect overthrew the sitting government, there's no indication that the Gorn have ever subsequently been hostile toward the Federation. The whole point of having them join the Pact was to give it at least one member that has historically been neutral rather than hostile toward the Federation.

It's true that Seize the Fire focuses on a similarly militant branch of Gorn society, but it also establishes that the Gorn have other castes such as scientists and artists. It would be a mistake to characterize them as "moustache-twirling villains."

however when the stories we've seen have focused on the militaristic aspects, why should we assume that they are a minority? We also never saw the Gorn's reaction to Kirk's mercy. For all we know it would be taken as a grave insult to let an enemy live when you have the opportunity to kill them. Perhaps they saw it as meaning the Federation didn't think the Gorn were a worthy for.