TWOK plot hole I just noticed

[alpha_leonis]

I don't know why I just noticed this one, I've seen that movie multiple times (including another watching just last night.)

Soon after Kirk gets the panicked message from Carol Marcus ("Why are you taking Genesis *away* from us?"), he has a conversation with Spock on the bridge -- Spock gives the current ETA to Regula as "12 hours, 43 minutes, present speed." Present speed was Warp 5 according to a previous order from Kirk to Sulu.

Immediately Kirk and Spock go down to Kirk's quarters, where they're met by McCoy, and the trio watches Carol's Genesis video together, followed quickly by a discussion of the moral consequences of the device. The entire exchange doesn't seem to take much more than a half-hour in "character time".

Very soon they're called back up to the Bridge by Saavik, who has just detected Reliant on scanners. They drop out of warp and experience their first battle, during which Enterprise's warp drive is disabled, but impulse is made available soon.

They then proceed to Regula, which somehow is very close and accessible by impulse power, when previously they were expecting a half-day's trip at warp 5.

So... what's up with that?

 

[Timo]

Most of those 12 hours were always supposed to be traveled at impulse?

It's fairly often that starships drop out of warp well outside the destination star system. Regula could be a particularly tricky one to navigate, what with bordering on the Mutara nebula and all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

We're also only shown part of any given event or exchange, regardless of how quickly or not it lasts. The conversation between Kirk, Spock and McCoy could have taken an hour or more before they actually watched the Genesis video, and/or Kirk and Spock may have had to wait for an hour for McCoy to show up, as he had doctoring stuff to do. Remember, when he entered, he said "Well, I've got sickbay ready. What's this big emergency?"

 

[SuperSpaceMan]

All the Star Trek Films seem to suffer from what would seem to be pacing issues, primarily because of the time it takes for space Travel... When it's convenient, Vulcan is 3 minutes from earth at warp, when it's not, it's 3 weeks... The problem is, how do you tell a story that doesn't seem overly disjointed to accurately show the travel times?

 

[alpha_leonis]

My own rationalization (which I only just now came up with): perhaps the entire scene, battle and all, actually took place in warp space. Perhaps they limped the rest of the way on "warp sustainers" or some such technomagic, rather than generating new power from the Warp engines.

Supported by the fact that, in the wide shot of the Enterprise after the battle (at the beginning of the Peter-Preston-in-Sickbay scene), the stars behind the Enterprise are moving. Which they wouldn't if the ship was stationary in normal space.

 

[Timo]

For all we know, the entire scene took place at impulse instead. We don't have to assume that "at present speed" would refer to warp five. Time has passed since Kirk gave that order to Sulu; quite possibly the heroes have already come out of warp and are planning on spending the next half a day crawling towards the space station at the speeds allowed by the presence of the Mutara anomaly. After all, while stars are seen moving, we see no warp streaks!

And no, the movie does not force us to think that warp streaks would not have been a feature of warp travel at that time...

Also, the Reliant is initially "closing fast", then Khan makes the first move of slowing to "one half impulse", and yet Kirk gives no orders for his own ship to slow down. If either of the two ships had been at warp originally, and especially if Kirk's remained at warp, the encounter would be over in a split second; it's more natural to assume that Khan's "fast" closing was at full impulse, and Kirk's own movement towards Regula at some slightly lower impulse to justify the comparison.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[arch101]

Sometimes you just have to ignore/suspend reality to enjoy a sci-fi production.
I mean, if the escape from Jupiter in the climax of 2010: Odyssey Two were filmed as written (which was portrayed realistically in the novel) it would have been REALLY dull. But, as filmed (however unrealistically it was shown) it was much more exciting.
Unless distances are a plot point, such as in Balance of Terror, I ignore them.

 

[Timo]

...Trying to make sense of "Balance of Terror" is an art form unto itself.

But the concept of warp drive and "warp factors" is pretty nifty for storytelling: if you are prepared to "risk it", you can go not just 30% faster (as might perhaps be the extreme case in a realistic naval adventure), or twice as fast, but potentially thousands of times faster.

In TWoK, we have lots of excuses for changing travel times. Kirk is in the opposite of hurry initially, enjoying a pleasure cruise for his birthday. He then thinks he has to go and sort out a bureaucratic foul-up at Carol's lab. And then he finds out it's a real emergency, but now his ship is shot to hell and her speed depends on the state of repairs first and foremost. So I have little problem with what we're presented here.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marsden]

We had a big thread about this not that long ago, but it's a valid point.

I think some of us decided that when Khan jumped the Enterprise, she was not that far from Regula, and most of the 12 hours had passed in between.

But as portrayed, it does seem to be an immediate transition.

I'm assuming just because we never actually see any of the main characters sleeping in bed that doesn't mean they never sleep. And we barely see them eating, do they only eat once every 4 movies? Also, bathroom stuff, do they not brush their teeth in the future?

So maybe in those 12 hours, Jim had dinner, made a log, and then went to bed. Got up, had breakfast read his book and then called for the meeting.

 

[Mytran]

Enterprise travelling the last 12 hours on Impulse makes the most sense I think; we've seen many times how starships' FTL speeds are affected by proximity to star systems, so using the Impulse Engines is probably just more economical.
The presence of the Mutara Nebula is also a big X-factor that aids this argument: Although specifics are unclear, we know that it does have an effect on FTL travel times as in the next film they manage what was previously a 2 day journey apparently overnight!

 

[Timo]

Well, in ST2, Earth to Regula was via the scenic route, and absent hurry. Taking the direct route and doing three warp factors better than birthday cruise speed in ST3 might turn a week-long trip into one taking two minutes if need be.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shawnster]

Enterprise traveling at impulse only makes sense if it was already in the Regula system. Enterprise wasn't heading toward Regula specifically before receiving the transmission from Carol.

 

[Mytran]

Kirk told Spock that it was 2 days to Regula, from their position current location (in the middle of the pleasure cruise). We are suggesting that it was a combination of 36 hours at Warp, then 12 at Impulse.

Regarding the apparent decrease in travel time in ST3, it occurred to me that we don't really know how far away from Earth the Enterprise was when she received Carol's message - the ship may have been 24 hours in the wrong direction of Regula!

 

[Timo]

Indeed, we have to remember that Carol Marcus called Jim Kirk specifically, not some nearest starship. And her intent was to get some very specific and potentially top secret bureaucracy sorted out, not to summon the nearest general help.

In turn, after Kirk received the call, he wondered whether responding was worth the hassle, then (at least as per his own words) spoke with Starfleet, and supposedly got clearance to deal with this issue. He didn't rush to rescue after an analysis of who'd make it there the fastest; for all we know, Starfleet routed several starships away from Regula to allow the secret project to be sorted out in secrecy.

So the "in the wrong direction" idea definitely can be made to work.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tribble puncher]

I just always assumed other things may have happened off screen before they all watched the video, maybe Kirk had to wait awhile to get permission from Starfleet to view the genesis tapes? Maybe they were transmitted to the enterprise after after Kirk requested them? All the while Enterprise was heading to Regular at warp....

My bigger question would be, how did Kahn assume Kirk would even respond to Regulas distress call? That Dr. Marcus would contact him directly? How did Carol know where Kirk was? I'd think she'd be calling Starfleet command in General? What would can have done if 2-3 random fed ships had shown up in place of Enterprise?

 

[David cgc]

My bigger question would be, how did Kahn assume Kirk would even respond to Regulas distress call? That Dr. Marcus would contact him directly? How did Carol know where Kirk was? I'd think she'd be calling Starfleet command in General? What would can have done if 2-3 random fed ships had shown up in place of Enterprise?

That's simple enough. The first thing Khan asked after brainwashing Terrel and Chekov was where Kirk was, so assuming they knew, Khan knew Kirk would be supervising a training cruse, so he wouldn't be on Earth. Then he had Chekov claim Kirk personally ordered the seizure of Genesis so Marcus would call him directly, and jammed the message so Kirk would have no choice but to check things out in-person, but wouldn't have enough information to assume it was a real emergency worthy of sending in the whole fleet. If there was enough information in the Reliant computer for Khan to deduce Kirk and Marcus knew each other personally, that'd practically guarantee the hotshot young captain he met would be the one to show up.

It's chancy, but it's not the most outlandish gambit in fiction. And even if it were, Joachim argues from the start to Khan that he's behaving irrationally out of his need to get back at Kirk.

 

[Timo]

Plus, no matter how Khan phrased his ultimatum, why would Carol Marcus call Starfleet? Starfleet was her declared enemy now! The only friendly face there was Jim Kirk's.

Khan should have guessed Marcus would take anti-Starfleet measures such as hiding Genesis. But he didn't really care about Genesis anyway, Kirk being his only real goal (and taking Genesis from Kirk directly would be an excellent way to apply salt to the wounds). And in any case, he must have been pretty sure he could get such things out of the way, especially if he had spare Ceti eels.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

The whole thing makes no logical sense and can't be rectified. Spock reports the twelve hours thing, Kirk tells Uhura to ask McCoy to meet them in his quarters—which means immediately—and hands the conn off to Saavik. Then they watch the Genesis tape, then Reliant shows up. So, in short, they're probably still 11 hours from Regula at warp 5 when all this goes down.

 

[Shawnster]

Let's look at the tape.

[Enterprise turbolift]


UHURA (on intercom): I have an urgent Comm-pic from Space Lab Regula I for you, sir. Doctor Carol Marcus.
KIRK: I'll take it in my quarters, Uhura.
UHURA (on intercom): Aye sir.
McCOY: It never rains but it pours.
KIRK: As a physician you of all people should appreciate the danger of re-opening old wounds.
McCOY: Sorry.

[Kirk's quarters]

CAROL (on viewscreen): Jim, can you read me?
KIRK: I can hear you, Carol. What's wrong? What's the matter?
CAROL (on viewscreen): Why are you taking Genesis away from us?
KIRK: Taking Genesis? Who's taking Genesis? Who is taking Genesis?
CAROL (on viewscreen): I can see you but can't hear.
KIRK: Carol!
CAROL (on viewscreen): Jim, did you give the order?
KIRK: What order? Who's taking Genesis?
CAROL (on viewscreen): Please help us. I will not let them have Genesis without proper authorisation!
KIRK: Have Genesis? Who gav...
CAROL (on viewscreen): On whose authority can they do this?
KIRK: No one's authority.
CAROL (on viewscreen): Please do something.
KIRK: Uhura! What's happening? Damn it.
UHURA (on intercom): Transmission jammed at the source, sir.
KIRK: Alert Starfleet Headquarters.
UHURA (on intercom): Aye sir.
KIRK: I want to talk to Starfleet Command.

[Regula I space laboratory]

CAROL (OC): We must have order here. This has to be some sort of mistake.
DAVID: Mistake? We're all alone here. They waited until everyone was on leave to do this. Reliant is supposed to be at our disposal, not vice-versa.
MADISON: It seems clear that Starfleet never intended that.
CAROL: I that know, but...
DAVID: I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military.
CAROL: Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event.
JEDDA: You may be right, Doctor, but what about Reliant? She's on her way.

[Spock's quarters]

KIRK (OC): We've got a problem. Something may be wrong at Regula I. We've been ordered to investigate.
SPOCK: If memory serves, Regula I is a scientific research laboratory.
KIRK (OC): I told Starfleet all we had was a boatload of children but ...we're the only ship in the Quadrant. Spock, these cadets of yours, how good are they? How will they respond under real pressure?
SPOCK: As with all living things, each according to his gifts. Of course, the ship is yours.
KIRK: No, that won't be necessary, just get me to Regula I.
SPOCK: As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command.
KIRK: It may be nothing, ...garbled communications. You take the ship.
SPOCK: Jim, you proceed from a false assumption. I am a Vulcan. I have no ego to bruise.
KIRK (OC): You're about to remind me that logic alone dictates your actions.
SPOCK: I would not remind you of that which you know so well. If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.
KIRK: I would not presume to debate you.
SPOCK: That is wise. In any case, were I to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
KIRK: Or the one.
SPOCK: You are my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and always shall be yours.

[Enterprise bridge]

KIRK: Stop energisers.
SULU (OC): Stop energisers.
KIRK: Prepare speakers. ...An emergency situation has arisen. By order of Starfleet Command, as of now, eighteen hundred hours, I am assuming command of this vessel. Duty officer so note in the ship's log. Plot a new course, for Space Laboratory Regula I. Engine room. Mister Scott!
SCOTT (on intercom): Aye sir.
KIRK: We'll be going to warp speed.
SCOTT (on intercom): Aye sir.
SULU: Course plotted for Regula I, Admiral.
KIRK: Engage warp engines.
SAAVIK: Prepare for warp speed.
SULU: Ready, sir.
KIRK: I know that none of you were expecting this. I'm sorry. I'm gonna have you to ask you to grow up a little sooner than you expected. Warp five.
SULU: So much for the little training cruise.

[Reliant bridge]

KHAN'S NAVIGATOR (OC): Course to intercept Enterprise ready, sir.
KHAN: Helmsman?
JOACHIM: Sir. May I speak? ...We're all with you, sir, but consider this. We are free. We have a ship and the means to go where we will. We have escaped permanent exile on Ceti Alpha Five. You have proved your superior intellect, and defeated the plans of Admiral Kirk. You do not need to defeat him again.
KHAN: He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him. I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up. ...Prepare to alter course.

[Enterprise bridge]

UHURA: Space Station Regula I. Please come in. Doctor Marcus. Please respond. This is Enterprise call... It's no use, there's no response from Regula I.
SPOCK: But no longer jammed?
UHURA: No sir. No nothing!
SPOCK: There are two possibilities. They are unable to respond. They are unwilling to respond.
KIRK: How far?
SPOCK: Twelve hours and forty-three minutes, present speed.
KIRK: Give up Genesis, she said. What in God's name does that mean? Give it up to whom?
SPOCK: It might help my analysis if I knew what Genesis was beyond the biblical reference.
KIRK: Uhura, have Doctor McCoy to join us in my quarters.
UHURA (OC): Aye sir.
KIRK: Mister Saavik, you have the con.

[Kirk's quarters]

McCOY: Well, I've got the sick bay ready. Now will someone please tell me what's going on?
KIRK: Computer. Request security procedure and access to Project Genesis Summary.
COMPUTER VOICE: Identify for retina scan.
KIRK: Kirk, Admiral James T.
COMPUTER VOICE: Security scan approved.
KIRK: Summary, please.
CAROL (on viewscreen): Project Genesis. A proposal to the Federation.
SPOCK: Carol Marcus.
KIRK: Yes.
CAROL (on viewscreen): What exactly is Genesis? Well, put simply, Genesis is life from lifelessness. It is a process whereby molecular structure is reorganised at he subatomic level into life-generating matter of equal mass. Stage One of our experiments was conducted in the laboratory. Stage Two of the series will be attempted in a lifeless underground. Stage Three will involve the process on a planetary scale. It is our intention to introduce the Genesis device into the pre-selected area of a lifeless space body, such a moon or other dead form. The device is delivered, instantaneously causing what we call the Genesis Effect. Matter is reorganised with life-generating results. ...Instead of a dead moon, a living, breathing planet, capable of sustaining whatever lifeforms we see fit to deposit on it.
SPOCK: Fascinating!
CAROL: (on viewscreen) The reformed moon simulated here represents the merest fraction of the Genesis potential, should the Federation wish to fund these experiments to their logical conclusion. When we consider the cosmic problems of population and food supply, the usefulness of this process becomes clear. This concludes our proposal. Thank you for your attention.
SPOCK: It literally is Genesis.
KIRK: The power of creation.
SPOCK: Have they proceeded with their experiment?
KIRK: Well, the tape was made about a year ago. I can only assume they've reached Stage Two by now.
McCOY: But, dear Lord, do you think we're intelligent enough to... Suppose, what if this thing were used where life already exists?
SPOCK: It would destroy such life in favour of its new matrix.
McCOY: It's new matrix? ...Do you have you any idea what you're saying?
SPOCK: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.
McCOY: Not anymore! Now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now, watch out! Here comes Genesis, we'll do it for you in six minutes.
SPOCK: Really, Doctor McCoy, you must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing. Logic suggests...
McCOY: Logic? My God! The man's talking about logic! We're talking about universal Armageddon, you green-blooded, inhuman...
SAAVIK (on intercom): Bridge to Admiral Kirk. Admiral, sensors indicate a vessel in our area, closing fast.
KIRK: What do you make of her?
SAAVIK (on intercom): It's one of ours, Admiral. ...It's Reliant.
KIRK: Reliant!

[Enterprise bridge]

KIRK: Try the emergency channels. ...Picture, Mister Saavik.

First off, Kirk gets a transmission from Carol Marcus. It seems little time passes between Uhura telling Kirk that a transmission was coming in and he talks to Marcus. It's a live transmission and not a recording that could have involved a time lag.

After talking to Marcus, Kirk requests to talk to Starfleet Command. We have no idea how long it took to get in touch with Starfleet or the particular person Kirk needed to talk to. We also do not know how long this conversation lasts.

Kirk proceeds to Spock's quarters to discuss the situation. I doubt he would have slept on it first. It doesn't make sense for Kirk to delay talking to Spock at this point. There is an emergency.

After bringing Spock up to speed, Kirk goes to the bridge and give his speech. They "will be going to warp speed" indicates they were not going at warp speed at this time. So much for a little training cruise.

We see Khan preparing to intercept Enterprise. He didn't know that Carol would contact Enterprise, but he was monitoring their communications (which is obvious from the movie, since he was jamming the signal). The end result was that he knew Kirk was contacted and that Kirk was on the Enterprise. If he was not originally planning for Kirk to come rescue Marcus, he had time to alter his plans.

We have a cut of unknown length of time. The next thing we know is they are 12 hours away from Regula 1 at present speed. Are they still at warp or did they drop to impulse at this point?

It is at this point they go watch the video about Genesis. Again, it's doubtful a long time passes between McCoy being summoned to Kirk's quarters and when he finally arrives. When the admiral requests your presence for a meeting, you go.

Reliant encounters Enterprise. Apparently this is within that 12 hour window. The two ship battle. Reliant is forced to withdraw after heavily damaging Enterprise.

Kirk visits Preston in sickbay. We do not know how much time elapsed between the end of the battle and the death of Preston. Hours? Minutes?

After Preston's death we cut to the arrival at Regula 1. Again, we have no idea how much time has passed.

It's quite feasible that 12 (or more) hours passed between the time Kirk watched the video and they arrived at Regula. There are 2 gaps of unknown length after the battle with Reliant that could easily take 12 hours.

Enterprise did not alter course until after Kirk's speech on the bridge.

Impulse power is slower than light speed. 12 hours at impulse would not cover the length of a star system.

 

[Timo]

Sure they would. Just a couple of hours at impulse covered the Sol system from Earth to Jupiter in ST:TMP (and we probably have to accept a bit of time dilation there).

It's not much of a system anyway: Regula does not have an ordinal attached...

We have a cut of unknown length of time. The next thing we know is they are 12 hours away from Regula 1 at present speed. Are they still at warp or did they drop to impulse at this point?

Now what is interesting at this particular occasion is that Uhura is trying to hail the Regula lab. If several days have already passed (since Khan's sending of the original message, after which Marcus no doubt immediately called Kirk), why is she persisting with such a futile thing? And if she has some reason to persist, why would she stop persisting at this specific moment?

It would make sense to think that something has recently changed vis-á-vis hailing the Regula lab, making it feasible to reattempt contact after a long pause. What has changed?

Has Khan simply stopped jamming now that he has killed everybody in the lab, and Uhura notices this?

Or does it take a reduction of speed from warp to impulse for Uhura to be able to notice the cessation of jamming?

If the former, then it would be odd for Kirk to still be 12 hours away when Khan is already right next to him! So we'd have to assume that Khan kept on jamming until getting to within a couple of minutes of Kirk (and thus has spent the past 12 hours getting away from the now-dead lab), which would be rather stupid because Kirk could then spot that moving jammer and associate that with the approaching starship.

Timo Saloniemi